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So as a wolfy player I have limited options with regards to flyers and anti air (Being 5th ed codex means there's not one thing in my army that can skyfire.). Unless I'm mistaken my flyer options are limited to a storm eagle, fire raptor, caestus ram and possibly a thunderhawk which I simply cannot afford. Regarding to fortifications there's the fancy forgeworld helios missile platform and tank but they cannot be used for anything other than AA. So I'm looking at the quad gun and the icarus lascannon for some cheap shooty skyfire fun.

I'd like the firestorm redoubt because you get 2 quad icarus lascannons (twin linked, skyfire and interceptor) for i think 220 pts and for 50 more you can upgrade to include a quad gun. combine this with Magos machine spirit (30 pts) to increase the BS of the ILC to 3 and put a marine on the quad gun (to shoot at the marines' BS) and suddenly you have some very effective anti air and a safe armour 14 building which your devs can fire from.

Nice. So I did some rolling and planned to roll 60 attacks a chaos heldrake, 30 with just the quad icarus lascannons and then 30 with the quad included. However the rolls 20-30 with both the QG and the ILC were so deadly I rolled another ten to see if it was just luck. So I'm rolling 4d6 to hit, hitting on 4s and rerolling, then I roll to penetrate, glances on 3s (Ap 12 - lascannon Str 9 and d6 ) and penetrates on 4s then the heldrake takes either his jink, or daemon special rule (Doesn't matter which as both are 5+ saves). Then I roll the damage table with the las getting + 1 for the result as it's ap2. Score of 1-2 is shaken and 3 is stunned both of which the helldrake can roll a +2 save for thanks to his rules but still takes the HP. Then I'm jumping the gun and rolling for 'it will not die' (IWND) as if I had nothing else to shoot at the beast and it survived to the end of its turn which is when it would normally roll to see if a 5+ regained one hull point (providing it's still alive)

On the next 40 rolls I repeat the process but this time I'm rolling the quad gun after the las, the marine is BS 4 so it's hitting on 3s again with rerolls. and its' Str 8 so it's penetrating on 4s and the damage table rolls as normal.
Here's what happened:

Helldrake vs 4 TL Lascannons BS3

1.) 2 hits, no glances, = Nothing
2.) 3 hits, 2 pens, no saves, explodes = Dead
3.) 2 hits, 1 pen, saved = Nothing
4.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, no saves, weapon destroyed, IWND = -1 HP and 1 Weapon
5.) 2 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, no saves, explodes = Dead
6.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, pen saved, no IWND = -1 HP
7.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 3 pens, 1 pen saved, 2 weapon destroyed, no IWND = Dead
8.) 2 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, weapon destroyed, IWND = -1 weapon
9.) 2 hits, nothing = Nothing
10.) 3 hits, 1 pen, no save, weapon destroy, IWND = -1 weapon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
11.) 2 hits, 2 pens, 2 saves = Nothing
12.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, pen saved, IWND = Nothing
13.) 3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, weapon destroyed, no IWND = -1 HP and 1 weapon
14.) 4 hits, 2 glances, 1 pen, 1 glance saved, immob, no IWND = -2 HP and Immob
15.) 4 hits, 3 pens, 1 save, explodes = Dead
16.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, 1 pen saved, explodes = Dead
17.) 3 hits, 3 pens, 2 saves, stunned, not saved, IWND = Stunned
18.) 2 hits, 1 pen, no save, explodes, = Dead
19.) 2 hits, 1 pen, no save, stunned, not saved, IWND = Stunned
20.) 2 hits, 1 pen, no save, explodes, = Dead
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
21.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, no saves, Immob, no IWND = -2 HP and Immob
22.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, glance saved, explodes = Dead
23.) 1 hit, 1 pen, no save, explodes, = Dead (wow!)
24.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, glance saved, stunned & immobno IWND = -2 HP, Stunned & Immob
25.) 2 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, Immob, no IWND = -1 HP and Immob
26.) 3 hits, 2 pens, no saves, explodes, = Dead
27.) 2 hits, 1 pen, no save, immob, no IWND = -1 HP and Immob
28.) 2 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, no saves, immob, no IWND = -2 Hp and Immob
29.) 3 hits, 2 pens, 2 saves = Nothing
30.) 3 hits, 1 pen, no save, stunned, saved, IWND = Nothing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------And with the Quad Gun------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.) 4 hits,
3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, stunned, saved, no IWND = -1 HP
2.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, 1 pen saved, immob,
4 hits, 1 pen, 1 save, no IWND = - 2HP
3.) 3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, weapon destroyed,
4 hits, 1 pen, 1 save, IWND = -1 Weapon
4.) 3 hits, 2 pens, no saves, explodes = Dead (Quad fires @ other units)
5.) 3 hits, 1 pen, no save, immob
4 hits, 2 glances, 1 pen, 1 glance saved, = Dead (no HP left)
6.) 2 hits, 1 pen, 1 save
4 hits, 2 glances, 1 saved, IWND = Nothing (unlucky)
7.) 2 hits, 1 glance, saved
2 hits, 1 pen, no save, immob, no IWND = -1 HP and immob
8.) 4 hits, 4 pens, 1 save, explodes = Dead (Quad fires @ other units)
9.) 4 hits, 3 pens, 1 save, explodes, = Dead (Quad fires @ other units)
10.) 3 hits, 3 pens, 2 saves, immob,
3 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, pen saved, no IWND = - 2HP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11.) 4 hits, 3 pens, no saves, explodes = Dead (Quad fires @ other units)
12.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, no saves, = Dead (no HP left)
13.) 3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, shaken, saved,
4 hits, nothing, no IWND = -1 HP
14.) 3 hits, 1 glance, no save
3 hits, nothing, IWND = Nothing
15.) 3 hits, 2 pens, no saves, 2 weapons destroyed
4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, glance not saved so... = Dead (no HP left)
16.) 4 hits, 2 pens, no saves, 2 crew stunned, 1 saved
4 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, glance not saved so.... = Dead (No HP left)
17.) 2 hits, 1 pen, saved
4 hits, 2 pens, no saves, shaken (saved) & weapon destroyed = -2 HP and 1 weapon
18.) 4 hits, 1 pen, no save, shaken (saved)
3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, glance not saved, pens not saved so.. = Dead (No HP left)
19.) 3 hits, 3 pens, 2 saves, stunned (not saved)
3 hits, 1 pen, no save, stunned (meh) no IWND = -2hp and Stunned
20.) 1 glance, 2 pens, no saves so... = Dead (No HP left)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
21.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, no saves, explodes = Dead
22.) 3 hits, 2 pens, no saves, explodes, = Dead
23.) 3 hits, 2 pens, 1 saves, stunned (saved)
3 hits, 1 pen, saved, no IWND = -1 HP
24.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, 1 pen saved, weapon destroyed
4 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, glance not saved so... = Dead (No HP left)
25.) 4 hits, 1 glance, saved
3 hits, 1 pen, no save, stunned (saved), no IWND = -1 HP
26.) 4 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, Immob
2 hits, 2 glances, no saves so... = Dead (No HP left)
27.) 2 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, pen saved
3 hits, 3 pens, 1 save so... = Dead (No HP left)
28.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, glance saved, explodes = Dead
29.) 1 hit, 1 pen, no save, explodes = Dead (Wow)
30.) 4 hits, 2 pens, no saves, shaken (saved) immob
4 hits, 1 glance, 1 pen, glance saved, pen not saved so... = Dead (Wow)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31.) 4 hits, 1 pen, , 1 save
4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, no saves so... = Dead
32.) 2 hits, 1 glance, saved
3 hits, 3 pens, 1 save, stunned (saved) immob, no IWND = -2 HP and Immob
33.) 2 hits, nothing
4 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, immob, no IWND = -1 HP and immob
34.) 3 hits, 3 pens, 1 save, stunned (saved) weapon destroyed
3 hits, nothing, IWND = -1 HP and 1 weapon
35.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, 1 pen saved, stunned (saved)
3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens 1 glance saved, only 1 pen saved so... = Dead
36.) 4 hits, 4 pens, 1 save so... = Dead
37.) 3 hits, 1 pen, no save, weapon destroyed
3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save, immob, no IWND = -2 HP and 1 weapon + immob
38.) 3 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens, no saves so.. = Dead
39.) 4 hits, 1 glance, 3 pens, (Oh dear! ) 2 pens saved shaken (saved)
4 hits, 1 glance, 2 pens (Hmmm.) glance not saved so... = Dead (No HP left)
40.) 3 hits, 3 pen, 1 save, weapon destroyed and immob
3 hits, 2 pens, 1 save so.... = Dead



To summarise with the Icarus lascannons alone you're likely to kill it 33% of the time with 23% chance of doing nothing the other 44% of the time you're doing significant damage to it's hull or removing a weapon (bye bale flamer)

Whereas with the ILC and the quad gun you're killing it 60% of the time and only 17% are you either doing nothing or removing 1 HP alone. The 23% of the time you're inflicting either 2 HP or removing a weapon. So that's a total 83% chance of either killing the heldrake, removing a weapon or leaving it with only one HP and lets not forget it can burn itself too. In all I think 300 pts for the Firestorm, 2 ILC a Quad gun and Magos machine spirit can make a 600 point battle very competitve, remember those guns can also moce their attention to other units once the flyer is dead. You can take them at 600 points, with a cheap HQ and basic troops which lets be honest if your opponent is bring a flyer they're probably lacking in troops and HQ also. You won't have many points left though so you could probably drop the quad and save 50 points. I'd then buy snipers and have them pick models off.

I'm no math genius and certainly will be rolling some more to cement my decision but would love to hear what everyone think of this tactic.



All that time wasted, just reread the statline for the quad gun and I've given it Str 8 instead of Str 7, drats. plus I'll need to get this moved.

I'll be back

Despite the name sounding like it's asking for polls, You Make Da Call is the sub-forum for rules questions. You'll have better luck in the Tactics or perhaps General forums.

Click the yellow triangle at the top right of your post to ask a Mod to move it.

Moving to Tactics.

Or you could just take the cop out and grab 2 Vengeance Batteries and a Aegis Defense Line with quad gun. Same price, but you get 2 Impassable AV 14 buildings, plus plenty of 4+ Cover with the same Icarus pattern lascannons and the quad. Granted, you need double FOC to field it, you can just take the batteries and still have 2 AV 14 buildings to use.

Instead of actually rolling dice, which is always going to be anecdotal unless you're working off hundreds of sets, it's easier to just work out the averages.

4TL LC=
4*0.66 = 2.64hits
Remove those hits to give the number of re-rolls = 1.36 re-rolls.
1.36*0.66 = 0.89hits.
Combine both results to provide total number of hits = 3.53hits.

S9 vs Armour12. 3's equal Glances, 4, 5, 6's equal Penetrates. 66% overall chance of doing something.
3.53*0.66 = 2.32.
25% of 2.32 will be glances, everything else will penetrate.
0.58 glances.
1.74 penetrates.

From there you work out cover saves using the same math. +1 on the damage table effectively gives you a 33% chance of explodes, 16% chance of immobilised, 16% chance of weapon destroyed, 16% chance of stunned, and 16% chance of shaken. The only way you can statistically guarantee an explodes result is by getting at least 3 successful penetrating hits. Statistically guaranteeing any other result that isn't shaken will require 6 successful penetrating hits, but if you have 6 pens, you're also guaranteed to force the explode anyway, so that's largely irrelevant.

edit: Bored, so worked it out factoring saves
2.32*0.66 = 1.53 hits after saves.

1.53*0.66 = 1 glancing or penetrating hit.
0.25 glances
0.75 penetrates.

Factoring IWND, you effectively remove 0.66HP per turn guaranteed.

Add the Quad Gun into things and you get:
4*0.66 = 2.64hits
Remove those hits to give the number of re-rolls = 1.36 re-rolls.
1.36*0.66 = 0.89hits.
Combine both results to provide total number of hits = 3.53hits.

S7 vs Ar12 = 5's glances, 6's pen. 50% of your successful damage rolls with be penetrates.
3.53*0.33 = 1.16 glances/pens.

Saves turn that into:
1.16*0.66 = 0.77 glances/pens.

0.385 glances
0.385 pens

Add to the original total is
0.385+0.25 = 0.63 glances
0.385+0.75 = 1.13 pens

1.76 HP lost per turn before IWND, which turns that into 1.16 HP lost per turn, which nets you a secured kill after 3 turns. Potentially, you could force an explode after 2 turns, since you're above the 50% chance threshhold on penetrates.

Ap0k - just wow maths. That seems way more impressive than my workings out. Unyielding Hunger - By impassible do you mean invunerable because they have a rule which says they can be shot at also my opponent took great pleasure in advising me that his bale flamer and vector strike ignore cover but I very well may still consider them

You've forgotten that there is a great dataslate available for all space marine codexs. Can't remember what it's called but it's 2 stormtalons and 1 stormraven. Both talons can escort the raven and the raven gets stafing run as long as one talon is alive.

You now have a mobile firebase for them naughty flyers haha and after turn it on the ground forces!

Ally with IG and take sabers. They are t7 skyfire tl lc that are troops.

Weren't the Wolves FAQ'd and given the option to take Flakk missiles in the Dev squads? might be the cheapest option.

 Aix'Nyre wrote:
Weren't the Wolves FAQ'd and given the option to take Flakk missiles in the Dev squads? might be the cheapest option.

nope

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
You've forgotten that there is a great dataslate available for all space marine codexs. Can't remember what it's called but it's 2 stormtalons and 1 stormraven. Both talons can escort the raven and the raven gets stafing run as long as one talon is alive.

You now have a mobile firebase for them naughty flyers haha and after turn it on the ground forces!

Oh, but all wolf players stubbornly prefer to grind their teeth at the fact they are not given any actual flyers or AA.
Another entry in the book of grudges for each battle denying SW fenrisian flyers.