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As titled, wanted to either use karandras infiltrating FD's, or SS infiltrating Fuegan.

you cant confer infiltrate to anyone.


Because of how deployment with IC's works, you can never do it, with the exception of shrike, since his special rule specifically says you can.

we'll ive got the pdf for the codex here, so i can post correct pages but it says the IC can begin the game in reserve, doesnt that mean that he can deploy SS.

Infiltrating is not as a reserve

Infiltrate happens at deployment. Attaching an IC during deployment happens by deploying it in cohesion with the unit, not before. So no transfer is possible and units without the USR cannot be deployed using it.

Infiltrate does grant outflank though. If you keep an IC and a unit in reserve, you can attach the IC at will and confer the outflank USR.

Even Shrike is debatable from a Rule as Written standpoint, as the Rule in question reads like an additional Restriction and not permission to join during deployment outside of the normal method.

Shrike isnt debatable at all from a RAI standpoint so we dont argue about it ~)~.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Shrike isnt debatable at all from a RAI standpoint so we dont argue about it ~)~.

The phrase RAI is itself debatable because only the Dev team knows what they intended. Even then, they flip flop on the FAQs. at times.

JinxDragon wrote:
Even Shrike is debatable from a Rule as Written standpoint, as the Rule in question reads like an additional Restriction and not permission to join during deployment outside of the normal method.

See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike has the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join squads of jump Infantry.

He joins before deployment. It is not debatable from RAW. It is also why only he can infiltrate someone forwards.

 warpspider89 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Even Shrike is debatable from a Rule as Written standpoint, as the Rule in question reads like an additional Restriction and not permission to join during deployment outside of the normal method.

See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike has the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join squads of jump Infantry.

He joins before deployment. It is not debatable from RAW. It is also why only he can infiltrate someone forwards.

Arriving from Reserves is also deploying. So it is possible that they meant that if placed in reserves, he can only join reserved units of jump infantry,

From a Rule as Written point of view there is a massive problem with Shrike:
There is no joining before deployment, ignoring reserves, as the only instructions we have involve placing the Independent Character in question into coherency with a already deployed unit. Shrikes rule in question does not provide us with alternative instructions, which would be something along the lines of 'Shrike can join a unit prior to deployment by simply announcing which unit he begins the game in and deploy them as a single unit,' but simply tell us he can not join any model lacking the Jump Infantry Unit Type. This creates a huge problem, for while everyone believes the intent should be to join prior to the game there is simply no Rule as Written support method allowing this to occur.

Then there is this issue, which I see Happyjew got to before I could post thanks to Work:
A unit can join another in reserves, something which occurs before said unit is deployed. As there is a method that would allow this sentence to function exactly as written, without involving House Rules, it can easily be stated that this sentence was designed to work within that method. This sentence would them make it illegal for Shrike to join any unit in reserve that lacks Jump Infantry status, while failing to grant him permission to join a unit outside of the default method.

however considering last edition of the book worked with him infiltrating his squad, and the special rules name is the same, it is extremely clear what they meant even with the horrible writing of the rule.


And no, i cant read the minds of the authors, but if they intended for the rule to work differently, they should have come up with a new name for it.

I have no problem with what the majority believes the Rule Intended, Shrikes fluff is pretty much 'leader of a covert team' and granting infiltration to others support this.

The issue I feel compelled to correct was the claim that there is Rule as Written support of this, sadly this is not the case. If anything, the history of Shrike and the Rules surrounding him can be held up as a 'case study' to some of the problems facing Game Workshop Rules encounter from time to time. There is extra care required when a massive project involves multiple contributors, in this case someone needed to ensure that each Author formats their Rules to fit into the greater system, and sometimes this extra care is not taken. In this situation we ended up with a Rule that has no way to function as the majority intends, and I can't help but feel that it occurred because the person writing the Reserve section had a different idea on how the process works to those whom wrote Shrikes rule.

And I wouldn't say it is an 'unknown' conflict either, if I am remembering right from past posters here, as Shrikes poorly written Rule required Frequently Asked Question correction in the past....

Hi Mate,

While RAW there's a lot of contention about conferring infiltrate, I notice you're from Southeast Queensland. In South East Queensland's Titans Ranked Tournaments, Infiltrate because of an HQ is legal. In Casual games and GW-run tournaments it's dependent on your opponent.

What a Tournament Organizer Rules in their events is irrelevant, it can not be taken as evidence of Rule as Intended / Rule as Written.

JinxDragon wrote:
What a Tournament Organizer Rules in their events is irrelevant, it can not be taken as evidence of Rule as Intended / Rule as Written.

Didn't say it did, Jinx. I know that's anecdotal. I was talking to the context of OP. As you might notice, we're from the same neck of the woods, so I gave him an answer that might suit him specifically.

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed." - Yes it does confer to the whole unit.

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of tnfiltrators during deployment." - But you can't use an IC to get it, as Infiltrators and non-Infiltrators are deployed at separate times.

PrinceRaven wrote:"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed." - Yes it does confer to the whole unit.

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of tnfiltrators during deployment." - But you can't use an IC to get it, as Infiltrators and non-Infiltrators are deployed at separate times.

Thanks mate, so would ASURMEN be cool to join some SS etc.

Scipio Africanus wrote:Hi Mate,

While RAW there's a lot of contention about conferring infiltrate, I notice you're from Southeast Queensland. In South East Queensland's Titans Ranked Tournaments, Infiltrate because of an HQ is legal. In Casual games and GW-run tournaments it's dependent on your opponent.

Hey mate, never been to the titans ranked tournament only play within 10 minute drive etc as I can't drive myself as I don't even have a learners permit yet. so I just go to local ones that do cool events like this.

Warp spider - you're making a common mistake, which is assuming that being told what happens if X occurs means that X has permission to occur.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment."

Thanks mate, so would ASURMEN be cool to join some SS etc.

Asurmen is an IC without the infiltrate rule, and as such cannot join a unit of Striking Scorpions during deployment, as per the rule Prince Raven quoted.

 Quanar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment."

Thanks mate, so would ASURMEN be cool to join some SS etc.

Asurmen is an IC without the infiltrate rule, and as such cannot join a unit of Striking Scorpions during deployment, as per the rule Prince Raven quoted.

I was meaning to quote Scipio