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I have yet to play against an opponent that uses Imperial Knights, but I'm attending a local tournament this weekend where I expect to see a few of them.

I'm currently running a Daemon list with CSM allies that'll look something like this (still tweaking it):

Fateweaver
11x Pink Horrors
10 Plaguebearers + Instrument
7x Screamers
2x DP of Tzeentch (each with 1 Greater, 1 Exalted, ML:3, Wings and Armor)

CSM:
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Heldrake (Hades Autocannon)

Normally I tend to go heavy into Telepathy with my Tzeentch Princes to get Invisibility and some of the other good powers, defaulting to Psychic Shriek if I roll one of the powers that aren't great (ie Dominate or Mental Fortitude). I'm including Be'lakor for the first time, so I'll get a good Telepathy toolbox to start with and I'm trying to consider other ways to roll. There aren't a lot of powers that can do hurt AV13 or even AV12 reliably. With access to Biomancy, Telepathy, Telekinesis and Change (Tzeentch powers) this is what I'd hope to roll to have a chance to knock some hull points off the Knights:

Biomancy:
Life Leach: Needs sixes on the roll to penetrate, and with only two shots this is a longshot.
If my opponent goes heavy into Knights, I think I can rule out Biomancy. If there are only 1-2 Knights I might be tempted though.

Telekinesis:
Crush: If I roll well (single hit at 2D6 str, 11 or 12 is auto-pen)
Objuration Mechanicum: Haywire hit, is also a malediction, so I can use it at the beginning of the turn and still have two shooting attacks
Vortex of Doom: S10 Ap1 Large Blast.
We've got two powers that would be great against vehicles, and decent to great against other units. Crush could be ok, but I'd have to roll well. The problem is that the rest of the powers here aren't great and I could wind up with an expensive DP with crap powers.

Telepathy:
Puppet Master: This could be great depending on what other weapons my opponent has to shoot at his own Knights.
Hallucination: The Knight hitting itself or the 'Errm' result would both be good here. Malediction, so still get two more shooting attacks.
Telepathy could be amazing, with Puppet Master and Hallucinate, and Psychic Shriek will likely still be useful against his non-Knight units. There are almost no bad powers here but a lot will depend on what else my opponent is fielding

Change:
Bolt of Change: Decent if I roll well for the variable strength of the beam
Infernal Gateway: Same issue as Bolt of Change
Only three results on this table, and two of them are great, if slightly random. Fateweaver will have all of these, and with two Tzeentch Princes to roll on this table I might have enough high Strength shots to remove some Knights.

Conclusion: The more I think about it, with Be'lakor bringing all the Telepathy powers, I'll likely roll heavy into the Change discipline. The Primaris Power is still pretty good if there are foot troops or I can get rear armor shots on vehicles. I don't think Telekinesis is reliable enough with 5 out of 7 powers being crap against AV12 and up.

Thoughts?

i use tzeentch princes and take flickering with 2 rolls in telepathy when i need shooting and thats okay vs knights.

jakl277 wrote:
i use tzeentch princes and take flickering with 2 rolls in telepathy when i need shooting and thats okay vs knights.

???? Flickering fire can't even touch Knights. Unless you have a Herald in a unit with the Locus of Conjuration (which you cannot attach to a Prince) Flickering Fire is S5.

To the OP: I think you're best bet (since you have Be'Lakor) is still to roll twice on biomancy and once on Chance with your Princes. Unless you get Infernal Gateway, I'd stick with flickering fire. You're going to need the extra rolls on Biomancy to keep those Princes alive. As you mentioned Fatey already knows all Change, so that's something. Between Fatey's roll on Pyromancy and the greater rewards on the DPs you have ~42% chance to get some kind of melta power and that's something as well. Basically what I'm getting at is stick to what DP's do best. Stay in the air, vector strike, and plink a few hull points off with whatever shooting you have. Once you've got one down to 3-4 HPs, Be'Lakor or a smashing Prince can take one down fairly reliably. Go in with invis on Be'Lakor, and even if you fail to kill it before it can strike back, you're likely to survive until the next round of combat. You can also try invinsing the screamers to try to take one down after stripping a couple hull points. You could also think about replacting one Tzeentch Prince with a Slaanesh Prince. That way even if you roll something crap on the greater reward table you can always default to Lash of Despair for 2d6 S6 shots. It gets even better if you roll Iron Arm on that Prince. 2d6 S9 shots?? Uhhh yes please. Granted, that's a best case scenario, but you remember the kid from Angels in the Outfield, right? "It could happen!" In fact, that's pretty much the attitude you HAVE to take when fighting Knights with Daemons. There's not a whole lot of tools we have to deal with them, and the ones we do are pretty random (duh) or have to do it in Melee against that nasty S-D. Allying in more units from CSM might help. I don't know the points for them, but you might be able to snag a small Termicide unit a couple of Oblits if you drop the screamers.

Good luck, hope this helped!

Unless they have three or more, special measures aren't really required. If they have three or more, roll Tzeentch twice and Telekinesis once. You'll get gateway and/or bolt and you'll have a 50/50 shot at a useful telekinesis power.

Hallucination does not work on vehicles per the FAQ.

Played with 4 Knights against FMC and against 4 Knights with FMC last week. Both times, FMC won.

Puppet Master is nice to have, but the other Telepathy powers are relatively wasted against Knights. Remember, Hallucination does nothing.

Biomancy has some powers that are nice to have. Particularly, Warp Speed can help when you need to make a charge to kill. Endurance is a nice extra save for when they do ground you and hit with big blasts.

Overall, movement and vector strikes are the key to beating Knights--not psychic powers. Just be sure to be smart and dictate the game--don't let them ground and charge you.

 JGrand wrote:
Endurance is a nice extra save for when they do ground you and hit with big blasts.

I also haven't played any games where D weapons were used. I know you don't get a save, but do you get FNP as it isn't a save? Similar to how perils works?

Nope - D weapons specifically say nothing that is a save or has any chance of saving you - explicitly no FNP or Reanimation Protocols as an example.

I haven't played against Knights with FMCs yet but when it happens I plan to just pretty much ignore them and just vector strike over them and keeping as far away as possible to prevent a charge in case of a grounding. I would pretty much just plink off hull points and kill off the troops (if any). Remember from shooting the knights are not much of a threat to you.

Also I would roll on biomancy every time I have the option. Iron arm boosted vector strikes will help a lot against Knights.

Iron arm does not boost vector strikes.

slaede wrote:
Iron arm does not boost vector strikes.

This I knew, combined with FNP not working against D weapons means it is extremely unlikely I'll go for Biomancy in any game with a lot of Knights. I already favor Telepathy over Biomancy in most situations anyway. I'm bringing a Hades Drake for S7 Vector Strikes and S8 shooting, that plus rolls in Change should get me enough high Strength shots to take out some Knights.

I also haven't played any games where D weapons were used. I know you don't get a save, but do you get FNP as it isn't a save? Similar to how perils works?

No save vs. D weapons, but it is a nice extra save versus the Battlecannon, Thermal Cannon, Stubbers, and grounding checks.

This I knew, combined with FNP not working against D weapons means it is extremely unlikely I'll go for Biomancy in any game with a lot of Knights. I already favor Telepathy over Biomancy in most situations anyway. I'm bringing a Hades Drake for S7 Vector Strikes and S8 shooting, that plus rolls in Change should get me enough high Strength shots to take out some Knights.

I normally roll for Telepathy as well, but neither power table is all the effective against Imperial Knights.

Smite--does nothing
Iron Arm--you don't need the toughness and you'll Smash when you get in CC anyway
Enfeeble--does nothing
Endurance--the extra save helps v. anything but the D
Life Leech--does nothing
Warp Speed--very nice when you charge them
Haemorrage--is bad in general

Shriek--does nothing
Dominate--does nothing
Mental Fortitude--not bad to have around when you do want to gtg and then get back up
Puppet Master--not bad, but don't expect to do much--even with their shooting
Terrify--does nothing
Invisibility--always a good power, though the Knight shooting isn't that scary to non-grounded FMCs anyway
Hallucination--does nothing

All in all, this is a rare match-up that isn't power based. There isn't a ton that you can do to them except play the mission, use movement and vector strikes, and pick your battles. It is fine to lose a 330-350 point non-scoring FMC in order to take out a 370-375 point scoring Knight.

slaede wrote:
Iron arm does not boost vector strikes.

Oops I didn't realize it said unmodified strength.



Anyways JGrand you hit the nail on the head. Against a Knight army it will probably be a boring game where you have to fly around and grab objectives late game.

Get enough Hellfire Gazes and burn them from behind.

The tournament is over. I wound up finishing second behind my son (he played Nids). I only faced one army with a Knight and it was largely a non-issue. I mainly avoided it and played to the objectives. I couldn't really cast spells at it because my opponent was using O'vesa and had the Talisman thing that lets you Deny the witch on 4D6. He also had Tigurius in that group. Almost all of my shooting and casting was shut down.

So in the end my choice of Disciples was mostly moot.