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Had a weird question come up and was just wondering if people knew the answer to it, it's in regards to the if you have no models on the board at the end of turn you lose. Do Aegis Defense Lines etc.. count toward that rule?

Nope, it's in the faq and stronghold assault also says fortifications do not count.

so if all you have left are fortifications, you've been wiped out.

Thanks. I figured it was in a FAQ or something. I just wasn't finding it.

Fortifications are not models/units, as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)

I think you would be hard-pressed to say that an ADL is not a model... otherwise, we have to create a new title for the thing you're placing on the table. "Unit" is something of an imaginative description, it is the role, within the setting of the game, that a model(s) or figurine fills... but in reality it's a bit of shaped plastic or metal, commonly called a "model".

Bit of a difference between "model" (the shaped plastic you mentioned) and "model" (the game defined meaning).

And Aegis is the former model, but not the later.
If hit by a blast, you count models under the marker. Wounds are allocated to models etc... Neither of those can be applied to an Aegis. And as mentioned before, it isn't a model simply because it lacks a unit type (strangely enough, unit type only ever applies to models, never units).

This is why GW is in sore, sore, SORE need of a Technical Editor that enforces a set style on them. That way, when they use a word or term in their writings, it has a defined, known meaning, and none of their publications deviate from that.

 Psienesis wrote:
This is why GW is in sore, sore, SORE need of a Technical Editor that enforces a set style on them. That way, when they use a word or term in their writings, it has a defined, known meaning, and none of their publications deviate from that.

Problem is, terms like "unit type" have been around for years (at least since 3rd ed).
If you're going to re-do the system, suddenly all the Codex need to be replaced/FAQ'd (unlike other game systems that don't have separate books for each race that overlap editions).

I mean we still have a heavy flamer that isn't heavy, but that's been around since Rogue Trader era, weapon types haven't. Would take quite a lot for a complete overhaul.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think you would be hard-pressed to say that an ADL is not a model... otherwise, we have to create a new title for the thing you're placing on the table. "Unit" is something of an imaginative description, it is the role, within the setting of the game, that a model(s) or figurine fills... but in reality it's a bit of shaped plastic or metal, commonly called a "model".

Except the 40K ruleset defines what model means, and that includes a unit type.

The miniature, or Phys Rep that is the ADL is commonly called a (model), but it is not a "Model" as defined by the 40k Ruleset as it does not have a unit type.

Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Fortifications are not units. However, if something specifies models, then they are affected.

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Does terrain get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

viewfinder wrote:
Fortifications are not units. However, if something specifies models, then they are affected.

Not necessarily true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Does terrain get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Can I shoot a bunker with a Death Ray?



Imohtek's ability specifically targets a enemy unit , if it's a vehcile it is hit on side armour. Of course it has no rules for buildings or anything else so how do even determine that but then buildings have the same armour value all around , I think.

I dunno it depends on whether they call Aegis Defense Lines enemy units. Or if it has Unit Type : Terrain.

I dunno it depends on whether they call Aegis Defense Lines enemy units. Or if it has Unit Type : Terrain. 

Fortifications are not units and "unit type: terrain" does not exist.

Hollismason wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Does terrain get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Can I shoot a bunker with a Death Ray?


Imohtek's ability specifically targets a enemy unit , if it's a vehcile it is hit on side armour. Of course it has no rules for buildings or anything else so how do even determine that but then buildings have the same armour value all around , I think.

I dunno it depends on whether they call Aegis Defense Lines enemy units. Or if it has Unit Type : Terrain.

Unit Type : Terrain is not a thing. This is because terrain is not a unit.

P.S. you can shoot ad a building as per the building rules that allow you to make shooting attacks at a building that is occupied.

Viewfinder: Go find a couple of 100lb dumbells, and pick them up. Then just stand there holding them.....keep doing it....

After a while you proclaim "Man, this is hard work"
Everyone around you agrees...

The nearby Physicist 'corrects' you, that you are not doing any work at all.
You see, in the 'world of physics' the term 'Work' has a specific definition.... different from the accepted common definition. (Work is a force through a distance)


the term 'model' has an accepted common definition, but in the 'world of 40K' it has a specific definition, different from the common one.

When playing with physics, or with 40K, you need to use the terms *they* use, not the common ones.


To wit: The Large Blast Marker is also a 'template' by common definition. 40K says Templates ignore cover. By your logic, LBMs will also ignore cover.

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Yes, enemy buildings count as enemy units. and buildings function like any other unit in your army.


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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I think you would be hard-pressed to say that an ADL is not a model... otherwise, we have to create a new title for the thing you're placing on the table. "Unit" is something of an imaginative description, it is the role, within the setting of the game, that a model(s) or figurine fills... but in reality it's a bit of shaped plastic or metal, commonly called a "model".

Except the 40K ruleset defines what model means, and that includes a unit type.

The miniature, or Phys Rep that is the ADL is commonly called a (model), but it is not a "Model" as defined by the 40k Ruleset as it does not have a unit type.

give it a rest already.

40k defines what a infantry model is, and infantry models have unit types. any usage of the word model in the rule book could either be dictionary model or infantry model.

sirlynchmob wrote:
40k defines what a infantry model is, and infantry models have unit types. any usage of the word model in the rule book could either be dictionary model or infantry model.

Not true, as 40k Defines what model means to the ruleset. Any mention of model as it pertains to terrain is simply an error on the editor as terrain and fortifications are not 'models' as the BRB defines.

The definition does not include terrain/buildings because terrain/buildings do not have a unit type.


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sirlynchmob wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Yes, enemy buildings count as enemy units. and buildings function like any other unit in your army.

only when shooting or assaulting them.

The Storm is neither

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
40k defines what a infantry model is, and infantry models have unit types. any usage of the word model in the rule book could either be dictionary model or infantry model.

Not true, as 40k Defines what model means to the ruleset. Any mention of model as it pertains to terrain is simply an error on the editor as terrain and fortifications are not 'models' as the BRB defines.

The definition does not include terrain/buildings because terrain/buildings do not have a unit type.


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sirlynchmob wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well in that case do they get hit by Imohtek's Storm?

Yes, enemy buildings count as enemy units. and buildings function like any other unit in your army.

only when shooting or assaulting them.

The Storm is neither

the BRB only defines model for infantry.

so the storm which happens in the shooting phase, has a ranged weapon profile, yet it's not a shooting attack?

If the storm is some sort of non attack, then where are the rules telling us how to do a non shooting, non assaulting attack? or any rules defining what constitutes a non attack. pg # will be good here.

If you're so sure about needing rules to define a model, then you should also be able to cite rules to define a non attack, or just state it's your opinion.

The BRB defines all models infantry, beasts, vehicles Etc... as models as long as they have a unit type.

The base rules assume infantry, and beasts have additional rules, but they still follow all of the rules for infantry with the noted exceptions.

For the storm, it has rules that tell you how to apply damage even though it is not a CC or a shooting attack.

There are many things that are not shooting or CC attacks, like the Imperial Knights stomp attack, Soulblaze, Vector Strike Etc...

 DeathReaper wrote:
The BRB defines all models infantry, beasts, vehicles Etc... as models as long as they have a unit type.

The base rules assume infantry, and beasts have additional rules, but they still follow all of the rules for infantry with the noted exceptions.

For the storm, it has rules that tell you how to apply damage even though it is not a CC or a shooting attack.

There are many things that are not shooting or CC attacks, like the Imperial Knights stomp attack, Soulblaze, Vector Strike Etc...

nope, not vehicles. vehicles have vehicle types, which you equate to a unit type without any specific rule to do so. Yet saying terrain type is also equal to unit type is just going to far? If vehicles are models, so is terrain. and since we're talking about the ADL, if you claim the gun emplacement is not a model, then when it is reduced to 0 wounds it still stays on the table, as only models are removed when they have 0 wounds.

ok I suffer the d6 str 8 hits, now what? there are no further rules on how to proceed. so I guess you roll your d6, get x hits, and it's done. as it's not following the shooting or assault sequences that's all were told to do.

sirlynchmob wrote:
nope, not vehicles. vehicles have vehicle types, which you equate to a unit type without any specific rule to do so.

Except for the rules on page 44...

"...we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on (see page 70)."

Vehicles are still units as per page 44, but are "distinct enough to require their own section..."

Also if vehicles were not units they could never perform shooting attacks. This alone destroys your argument.

"During the Shootng phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks" (12)

Yet saying terrain type is also equal to unit type is just going to far?

Yes, because terrain is not listed in the unit types section at all, unlike vehicles.

If vehicles are models, so is terrain.

There is literally no basis for this, it is simply incorrect.

and since we're talking about the ADL, if you claim the gun emplacement is not a model, then when it is reduced to 0 wounds it still stays on the table, as only models are removed when they have 0 wounds.

ok I suffer the d6 str 8 hits, now what? there are no further rules on how to proceed. so I guess you roll your d6, get x hits, and it's done. as it's not following the shooting or assault sequences that's all were told to do.

The emplacement is terrain, this is demonstrably true.

There is an allowance to shoot at it, ergo you have to follow the shooting rules when shooting at it, which requires you to remove that piece of terrain when it has 0 wounds left. saying you just roll hits and nothing else has no basis in te rules at all.

so which rule lets you remove terrain from the table? especially when you claim you can't even modify terrain.

models get removed when they get to 0 wounds.

sirlynchmob wrote:
so which rule lets you remove terrain from the table? especially when you claim you can't even modify terrain.

models get removed when they get to 0 wounds.

The shooting rules you have to use against that piece of terrain.

They tell you it can be shot, so it essentially acts like a model for that shooting attack, if it didn't you would never be able to shoot it at all because "All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit." (13)

To shoot the same target unit, we must substitute target terrain for the rule to function at all.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so which rule lets you remove terrain from the table? especially when you claim you can't even modify terrain.

models get removed when they get to 0 wounds.

The shooting rules you have to use against that piece of terrain.

They tell you it can be shot, so it essentially acts like a model for that shooting attack, if it didn't you would never be able to shoot it at all because "All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit." (13)

To shoot the same target unit, we must substitute target terrain for the rule to function at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/04 20:36:02

oh now it's terrain acting like a model?

what happened to:

Fortifications are not models/units, as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)
The miniature, or Phys Rep that is the ADL is commonly called a (model), but it is not a "Model" as defined by the 40k Ruleset as it does not have a unit type.
Not true, as 40k Defines what model means to the ruleset. Any mention of model as it pertains to terrain is simply an error on the editor as terrain and fortifications are not 'models' as the BRB defines.

you used model and unit in reference to terrain

 Psienesis wrote:
I think you would be hard-pressed to say that an ADL is not a model... otherwise, we have to create a new title for the thing you're placing on the table. "Unit" is something of an imaginative description, it is the role, within the setting of the game, that a model(s) or figurine fills... but in reality it's a bit of shaped plastic or metal, commonly called a "model".

We have a title for these things we are placing on the battlefield.

They are called terrain.

They only ever use the rules for terrain and their own additional special rules along with the selection and deployment rules of Fortifications.

An aegis defence line is a defensive line(terrain type) with a few special rules. The quad gun is a gun emplacement(again terrain type) with no other special rules. they have rules based on them being part of the fortifications slot found in either the BRB or stronghold Assault book(if you are using it).

They are never models just like a Defense lines and gun emplacement placed during terrain placement are never models(coincidentally you can use the exact same pieces).

By that logic then Death Ray or anything that draws a line and passes over models does not affect them.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fortifications are not models/units, as they do not have a unit type, they are terrain.
"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type" (3)
The miniature, or Phys Rep that is the ADL is commonly called a (model), but it is not a "Model" as defined by the 40k Ruleset as it does not have a unit type.
Not true, as 40k Defines what model means to the ruleset. Any mention of model as it pertains to terrain is simply an error on the editor as terrain and fortifications are not 'models' as the BRB defines.

you used model and unit in reference to terrain

You must not have understood the context of what I wrote there...

I said that [terrain] does not have a unit type.

Not it says does not have...


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Hollismason wrote:
By that logic then Death Ray or anything that draws a line and passes over models does not affect them.

Except for the part about fortifications being able to be shot at and attacked in CC...

Time to back DR here.

A model, as defined by the BRB must have two things going for it. I must have a characteristic profile complete with unit type and must be part of (or the whole of) a unit. Some pieces of terrain have a profile. That does not define them as a model because they are lacking in unit type and an associated unit they belong to. Some pieces of terrain can be targeted by ranged and CC attacks. That does not meet any of the qualifications.

...and yes, vehicles are well defined as models.

"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into 'units'." -Page 3, BRB, Forming a unit

"Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics." -Page 3, BRB, Characteristic Profiles

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Cavalry, which we discuss in more depth on page 44." -Page 3, BRB, Other Important Information

"...unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile..." Page 44, BRB, Unit Types

"Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model. However, some vehicles, such as Ork Warbuggies and Eldar Vypers, operate together in what are known as squadrons. Squadrons are treated like normal units, with a few exceptions and clarifications as described below." -Page 77, BRB, Bold text at the top