Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there any case to be made for the Venerable Dread over the Ironclad?
AV13 is really big I know, but does WS/BS5 come close?

With the BS5, the ven is more likely to shoot stuff to death on the turn it lands. Assuming you give it one of the non-TL’d guns. So the venerable has more of an immediate threat.

The ironclad, with AV 13 and paired, nasty CC weapons is more of a persistent threat. It is not something you want rampaging around you back lines, and is much harder to take out.

If you want to ensure the LZ is clear as part of a coordinated drop, I think the Ven has the potential to land harder. Also, if you are planning on dropping it late, rather then first turn, because you want to get more shooting in, and getting to CC takes time you might not have.

If you are dropping solo as a disruption unit, the ironclad is a tougher thorn is your enemies’ side. He works well as a threat, as I feel he has more potential damage then the ven. He demands attention. Sometimes that’s more important in a drop.

The Venerable Dreadnought's ability to force re-rolls of Armour penetration hits matters as well. If the enemy has a lot of S9, S10 or melta stuff that punches through AV13, then the Venerable becomes a more survivable option. BS2 is a big deal, it lets you reliably land hits with the MM (or Plasma Cannon / Assault Cannon if you're playing against someone who has no vehicles). When I drop venerable Dreadnoughts, I usually equip it with a MM and an ML - it almost always kills something, though it rarely survives the next turn. Kind of a lot of points to spend. The WS5 is nice, but it isn't enough a boost in close combat - most stuff is still hitting on 4's, and the venerable dread doesn't have enough CC attacks to do anything but tarpit.

Like Nevelon said, Ironclads are a more "persistent" threat, though don't discount their ranged firepower! They DO come with a meltagun by default, and it's not very difficult to get into melta range by taking advantage of the 6" disembarkation range (everything 12" from the hull of the droppod is in melta range). You can also equip them with two hunter-killer missiles, which you can blow on your first turn to give you a good chance of killing or glancing a vehicle. AV13 is important, because of the prevalence of S8 and S7 fire in the game (in particular, S8 is only half as likely to pen AV13 as it is to pen AV12), so you have a decent chance of surviving your opponent's turn. Ironclads survive "crew shaken" and "weapon destroyed" results well, since the former doesn't affect it in close combat, and it has a lot of redundant weapon systems. Ironclads are very good tarpit units, the AV13 makes them very difficult to damage in close combat, and with I4 you have a good chance of sweeping them if they use "our weapons are useless" to try to escape. And of course, they totally wreck vehicles if they get into base combat.

They're both suicide units, and should be treated as such. Your game plan cannot rely on them surviving past their first turn. The idea is to control the flow of the game, to force your opponent to react to what you're doing.

Any of the twin linked weapons seem like overkill with BS, so that leaves either multi melta or assault cannon as primary guns.
I hadn't considered the Missile arm but that would give you two S8 shots @ BS5 for fairly cheap.

I like the classic dread loadouts:

Stock with multi-melta
Assault cannon with heavy flamer on the fist

They served me well before 6th and can still do well now if used properly.

minigun762 wrote:Any of the twin linked weapons seem like overkill with BS, so that leaves either multi melta or assault cannon as primary guns.
I hadn't considered the Missile arm but that would give you two S8 shots @ BS5 for fairly cheap.

I can see your point on the ML, but for a drop dread, you are probably going to want to keep the powerfist. Even with the WS5, if you are just kicking things twice at S6 where they get their armor saves, you are going to be stuck in CC for a loooong time. And are not going to be particularly threatening. I think a BS5 MM is going to be scary enough, I’d rather have the versatility of the DCCW(HF) arm.

FirePainter wrote:I like the classic dread loadouts:

Stock with multi-melta
Assault cannon with heavy flamer on the fist

They served me well before 6th and can still do well now if used properly.

I’m a fan of the AsC as well. It’s a good all purpose gun. On a drop dread you can try to drill 4 rending shots into something’s rear armor, or with the HF to try to much some infantry.

 FirePainter wrote:
I like the classic dread loadouts:

Stock with multi-melta
Assault cannon with heavy flamer on the fist

They served me well before 6th and can still do well now if used properly.

I'm a big fan of the MM with HF in a Pod. It gives it the tools to deal with whatever you need dead on turn 1.

Pathfinders lurking in cover? Heavy Flamer
Lootas? Heavy Flamer
Need that tank to die? Multi-melta!

Throw on Extra armor and with Venerable you can survive to charge units that need to be tied up or killed.

If The aim is to break there planned moves and tactics up, if so a iron clad with tougher armour will keep attention longer, and the extra hunter killer one shots could add to firepower vs tanks to back up arms.

Its going to endure longer, thus tieing up some of there nastier anti tank gear for a turn or 2 if lucky.

I like dropping Venerables in firing lanes I don't occupy while Ironclads get in your face.

Do you kill the AV13 CC monster right in front of you about to rip you a new one, or at the BS5 dread that just appeared in a very good firing position?

Really depends what you want to do with it, and what the rest of your army consists of.

I go with the Ironclad for one reason and one reason only; in my army, I also have two Vindicators, and this means four AV13 vehicles to make the enemy have to deal with some target priority. The Vindicators are usually not in close by that point but players fear them and often will ignore the dread just to ensure a Vindicator never fires.

I think personally it's not contest, the AV13 hull on the Ironclad is much more useful than the Venerable's re-roll to me, because it makes it safer against most forms of attack, whereas the venerable is basically still just a basic dread outside of damage table rolls. I'd rather them not get to the point of earning a vehicle damage table roll (or dropping hull points) if I can avoid it.

Also, it makes it invulnerable to the omnipresent krak grenades, which for me helps a lot, because of the aforementioned need to force the enemy to prioritize other AV13 targets.

Shifting gears a little, how does the TLLC & ML Dreadnought compare to the Rifleman?

 minigun762 wrote:
Shifting gears a little, how does the TLLC & ML Dreadnought compare to the Rifleman?

One practical plus is that you can build it out of the box, without resorting to kitbashing/FW/3rd party arms.

Sometimes, you need something dead, and you need it dead now. While stripping HP off might be mathematically point efficient, it can take time. Not everyone got the memo that mech is dead. Someone puts down a LR, or other AV14 wall, what are you going to do to it? Same thing to a lesser extent with AV13. Sure, the TLACs might be better for light armor and MCs, but that’s not the only thing out there.

You can also ID T4 models.

The TLLC/ML is more focused for hard targets, while the rifleman is better for MCs and medium ones. To be honest I’m a little underwhelmed but the ML side. For the points, I would have liked something a little bit more. BS5 ven dreads might be a little better with it.

And from a purely retro-pedantic POV, Riflemen should be TLAC/TLLC, with a lower armor value and the Gets Hot! rule. But that’s the old school battletech player talking.

Well a Venerable dread with a TLLC is going to hit something, and at 48" range, you can position this guy back in some cover and supply some valuable anti-tank support. The ML on there is really just support, and then something that can be used once you have already blown up all the vehicles out there.

But then again, shooting vehicles with Jink or holo-field won't always guarantee a HP. I would say they can work well, but are not always going to perform, and they take up an elite slot, where a drop pod of sternguard with meltas will guarantee a destroyed vehicle on turn 1.

Admittedly not in your original question, but a Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought with two Kheres Assault Cannons is an excellent choice, 12 S6 AP4 shots coming out of a pod can destroy most tanks through glances on a side, or a unit of troops.

However, in response to your actual question, I would always pick an Ironclad for the extra armour on the front and therefore the long term effect on the game.

For drop pods, I might suggest a Siege Dreadnought. it can only take a lucy drop pod as a dedicated drop pod, but they are armed with the same flamestorm cannon that is on the Redeemer. Also it has a heavy flamer on it's siege drill that does +d6 pen and gets free heavy flamer hits.

it's the same amount of points as an iron clad in a pod, but has 1 less armor save.

 Nevelon wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Shifting gears a little, how does the TLLC & ML Dreadnought compare to the Rifleman?

One practical plus is that you can build it out of the box, without resorting to kitbashing/FW/3rd party arms.

Sometimes, you need something dead, and you need it dead now. While stripping HP off might be mathematically point efficient, it can take time. Not everyone got the memo that mech is dead. Someone puts down a LR, or other AV14 wall, what are you going to do to it? Same thing to a lesser extent with AV13. Sure, the TLACs might be better for light armor and MCs, but that’s not the only thing out there.

You can also ID T4 models.

The TLLC/ML is more focused for hard targets, while the rifleman is better for MCs and medium ones. To be honest I’m a little underwhelmed but the ML side. For the points, I would have liked something a little bit more. BS5 ven dreads might be a little better with it.

And from a purely retro-pedantic POV, Riflemen should be TLAC/TLLC, with a lower armor value and the Gets Hot! rule. But that’s the old school battletech player talking.

Easy kit building is always a big factor to me.
That said, I'm interested in the new Hydra kit's TLAC.

TLLC and TLAC might be a fun alternative. Something a little unique and real flexible. Could save some points by foregoing the Venerable BS boost.

In my minds eye, I've liked the scene of an IrnCld dread with 2 HF pod'd on a flank and stomping full speed.

Vox casters on full blast. "DIE!!!"

Don't forget! An Ironclad can take two Heavy Flamers. You can eat an infantry squad with one if need be. HK missiles are eh.

I find the Ironclad to be very tough, and survivable unless focused.

Venerable is fine, but 2 TLAC 's are probably the way to go. Unless you have points to spend, then grab that Lascannon as well.

Dropping a dread in, go vanilla.

I see no reason to keep the single melta , when dual flamers is that much more potent.

What about the special DCCW, does one stand out over the other?

Has anyone tried the basic Dreadnought with TL heavy flamer and heavy flamer? 115 points roasty toasty death

minigun762 wrote:I see no reason to keep the single melta , when dual flamers is that much more potent.

What about the special DCCW, does one stand out over the other?

Sometimes you need the melta. It’s versatility vs. specialization. I’m a fan of the TAC flexibility of the mixed load, but sometimes things need to burn.

The chainfist is more likely to get the pen, the hammer is going to do better once it rolls on the chart. Hammer is also going to do better vs. MCs. But setting the fluff aside, you should be avoiding CC with monsters. How much AV14 you plan on seeing? The hammer should be fine vs. almost anything, but the armorbane on the fist will carve open everything

minigun762 wrote:Has anyone tried the basic Dreadnought with TL heavy flamer and heavy flamer? 115 points roasty toasty death

On paper it looks like it could be fun to play with. It’s not a lot of points for a lot of fire. You can get a 2xFlamer assault squad in a pod for less, but there is a big difference between normal and heavy flamers. Although if you are going to drop a dread just to set something on fire, a 2xHF ironclad is only 30 points more. So you swap the TL on one of the flamers for AV13, an extra attack, extra armor, Move Through Cover, and a better class of DCCW. Worth the 30 points IMHO.

Would the siege dreadnought I mentioned above work too?

I actually quite like the MM / DCCW / flamer Venerable.

However, the Ironclad seems to make people really scared when it drops into their deployment and blow something up. It changes their game plan, and gives you that "What If?" factor in their back field.

Off topic, but Mech is nowhere near dead. It's certainly not as strong at it once was, but a heavily mechanized list with AV 13 and 14 will still do well. Melta isn't being taken as much as it used to. The new IG codex will attest to this.

 Wingeds wrote:
I actually quite like the MM / DCCW / flamer Venerable.

I'm actually leaning towards the same basic loadout but taking the Assault Cannon instead.
I think the added flexibility is worth the price increase. Hitting rear armor with 4x BS shots is nice