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I'm building a Minotaurs army and I'm finding, more and more, that the biggest sticking point for me is what to do for my Troops selections. The more I look at Space Marine tactical squads, the more I feel sad that they aren't Chaos Space Marines (a shocking conclusion); nuts to ATSNKF - I want two special weapons in my squads!

I'd like 3 troops choices; this is what I've got now.

Tactical 1: 10 Marines combat squadded, flamer & plasma cannon

Tactical 2: 10 Marines combat squadded, flamer and multi-melta

Razorback: twin-linked assault cannon/twin-linked lascannons

Scout #1: 5 Scouts, sniper rifles, camo cloaks, missile launcher

I'm pretty happy with the scout squad; they'll complement my Thunderfires nicely for backfield support and can take advantage of my techmarines' Bolster Defences. It's the Tactical units that are giving me pause.

I've thought about swapping the second unit for 6 marines with a meltagun/flamer, Vet Sgt with complementary combi-weapon* and meltabombs. Possibly a power weapon.

*for fun, I've even thought about giving the Sgt an additional combi-weapon. Replace his bolter with close combat weapon for free, then swap out the pistol for a combi-weapon and the melee weapon for another one. Can't fire them both in the same turn, but still...

The first unit I've considered doing something similar: 10 marines, special weapon and heavy (or combi weapon on the Sgt). If I combine that with the 6-man second squad, then I can buy them a Rhino as well.

Those are my thoughts on the Troops; any suggestions?

~~~~~~

For those looking for/requiring additional context, this is the rest of my list. 2000 points, single Force Org.

HQ
Asterion Moloc
Damocles Command Vehicle

Elites:
Hammernators + Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer (building the model, but haven't yet decided on type)
Hecaton Aiakos
Mortis-pattern Contemptor w/ Kheres Assault cannons/ twin-linked lascannons

Fast Attack:
Storm Talon with Skyhammer missiles

Heavy Support:
Thunderfire cannon
Thunderfire cannon

Minotaurs are more melee focus that shooty focused. Granted we are still talking marines, but +1 charge range and Zealotry in enemy deployment zone, and unpinnable or Panicable means they will most likely make the charges.

Personally the guys make more since to use the Seige Vanguard lists with and go Assault heavy.

Where is Hecaton Aiakos from? I don't regonize him.

barnowl wrote:
Where is Hecaton Aiakos from? I don't regonize him.

IA12. He's a character contemptor dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:
Personally the guys make more since to use the Seige Vanguard lists with and go Assault heavy.

Maybe. It's a fluffy list and probably a good strategic idea, but the siege list has the huge drawback of the special siege objective so you really have to design around that special objective instead of just taking a general list with stuff you like.

Have you tried taking the TAC squads in units of 5 with a single special weapon (melta or flamer)?

One of the more interesting things I have been toying with is running a bunch of SM scout squads with CC/pistols in land speeder storms. Scout and infiltrate them near the enemy, blind a few units and charge. Hopefully they survive long enough and cause enough chaos that my heavier stuff can hit the line.

Minotaurs are not really much better in CC than most of the other chapters and are actually worse when they get there than many of the others (iron hands and white scars being prime examples). What they really have is they can close on the enemy while on foot a little better than most chapters and have some awesome special characters.

The siege list could be nice to get you double special weapons and CC/pistols on your troops to make them semi decent in assault. The only problem being the siege objective is a big concern and you don't gain as much from the list as most other chapters so mirror matches will not be as good.

Ansacs that makes a lot of since if your just running 20 Marines any way. Point cost before special weapon is the same as is the model count.

Of codex lists I would say IHs are really the only one noticably better. WS get bikes and a better hammer, but Minotuars on bikes would balance the HoW against better charge range and and better first round assault. The Hit and run from the bikes would make that very useful.

I do agree the Siege objective can be a pain.

barnowl wrote:
Ansacs that makes a lot of since if your just running 20 Marines any way. Point cost before special weapon is the same as is the model count.

Of codex lists I would say IHs are really the only one noticably better. WS get bikes and a better hammer, but Minotuars on bikes would balance the HoW against better charge range and and better first round assault. The Hit and run from the bikes would make that very useful.

I do agree the Siege objective can be a pain.

You will loose your ability to deny KP in some games but 5/6 the time you will have a weapon that doesn't hurt your mobility. I would also probably drop the razor back in favor of more bodies.

WS get hit and run. This means they get to charge you over and over again. HoW is actually much better than a CC attack as it hits automatically. Minotaurs also are only better in assault against SM with their SC.

Funnily enough the best melee chapters in my experience are White Scars #1, Raven Guard #2, Carcharodons #3, and Red Hunters (only when allied with GK though). You will notice that all the Minotaur chapter tactics only make them easier to move forward or catch you in assault, they have nothing to improve melee. In comparison scout combined with transports or bikes gives you a much large mobility advantage than any amount of reroll run or +1" charge and the Carcharodons are probably the best CT if you want to be good in melee. The Black Templars can also be made to be pretty good, their big advantage being a land raider dedicated transports and hidden powerfists that cannot be challenged.

Minotaurs have a great special character and they can be pressed forward very consistently with no fear of them loosing ground due to morale. They can also be surprisingly mobile with their 2d6 take highest run moves.

I honestly think minotaurs would make excellent objective holders, and the go to chapter for defending a stronghold in strong hold assault since they are unpinnable, and auto-pass ranged morale checks.

 ansacs wrote:


WS get hit and run. This means they get to charge you over and over again. HoW is actually much better than a CC attack as it hits automatically. Minotaurs also are only better in assault against SM with their SC.

Funnily enough the best melee chapters in my experience are White Scars #1, Raven Guard #2, Carcharodons #3, and Red Hunters (only when allied with GK though). You will notice that all the Minotaur chapter tactics only make them easier to move forward or catch you in assault, they have nothing to improve melee. In comparison scout combined with transports or bikes gives you a much large mobility advantage than any amount of reroll run or +1" charge and the Carcharodons are probably the best CT if you want to be good in melee. The Black Templars can also be made to be pretty good, their big advantage being a land raider dedicated transports and hidden powerfists that cannot be challenged.

Minotaurs have a great special character and they can be pressed forward very consistently with no fear of them loosing ground due to morale. They can also be surprisingly mobile with their 2d6 take highest run moves.

Ack, your are correct, HnR is WS CT. I was thinking it was a bike USR. Yeah Charcharondons are solid SM melee chapter since you can making all C:SM marines poor man's grey hunters.

barnowl wrote:Minotaurs are more melee focus that shooty focused. Granted we are still talking marines, but +1 charge range and Zealotry in enemy deployment zone, and unpinnable or Panicable means they will most likely make the charges.

They're good for making charges and for absorbing incoming fire without breaking, but there are other chapters that do melee better. I don't want to go full-up melee focus (I have my Plague Army) for that, but I definitely wanted to take advantage of their charge bonus - hence the Hammernators.

barnowl wrote:Where is Hecaton Aiakos from? I don't regonize him.

Peregrine wrote:IA12. He's a character contemptor dread.

Yep; he's about 30 points more than a comparatively-armed Contemptor, but he gets a better save, better BS (which is good for reducing scatter on the plasma cannon), better initiative, he's Venerable and can chew up light troops at an impressive rate with Groundstrike . Plus, the model is awesome. He and the Death Guard Contemptor what made me come around to using Contemptors.

[rambling] Which is... pretty much how I design my army lists. "I like this model - what do I have to do to play it?" Although... that doesn't always work out. [looks at pair of Defilers sitting forlornly on a shelf]. I knew I was going to make a Marine chapter; Forge World's release of their Chapter Tactics and a bucketload of Minotaurs kit from various relatives bumped me from doing a Star Phantom drop pod list to Minotaurs. [/rambling]

barnowl wrote:Personally the guys make more since to use the Seige Vanguard lists with and go Assault heavy.

Peregrine wrote:Maybe. It's a fluffy list and probably a good strategic idea, but the siege list has the huge drawback of the special siege objective so you really have to design around that special objective instead of just taking a general list with stuff you like.

ansacs wrote:The siege list could be nice to get you double special weapons and CC/pistols on your troops to make them semi decent in assault. The only problem being the siege objective is a big concern and you don't gain as much from the list as most other chapters so mirror matches will not be as good.

I've heard of the Siege list before, but only of its existence. I don't have it - I'm guessing it's in one of the Badab War books?

ansacs wrote:Have you tried taking the TAC squads in units of 5 with a single special weapon (melta or flamer)?

I have not. I've toyed with the idea, but not put it into practice yet - well, aside from combat squadding the indicated troop units.

I would also probably drop the razor back in favor of more bodies.

That's certainly doable, but the question becomes - what kind of bodies? For 75 points, I can get a 5-man troop unit with a flamer or a five-man scout unit with cloaks and rifles. Three bikes with one melta - heck, I could even grab a Whirlwind. I originally took the Razorback to give my list a little extra pop against heavier vehicles and Monstrous Creatures. Right now, I've got the Hammernators, a couple Orbital Bombardments, the Mortis and Aiakos in a pinch. Despite being mounted on a Rhino chassis, my concern is by trading the Razorback out, I'm losing that ranged firepower for an increased ability to mulch light infantry with the extra bodies. I love extra bodies, don't get me wrong - but I also love being able to snipe out Annihilation Barges before they can throw buckets on dice at my other bodies.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Siege list
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/Siege_Assault_Van.pdf


I have a philosophy of either taking a credible threat or take more scoring. A single razorback is not really a credible threat and has a very small chance of actually destroying a vehicle before being killed. Another squad of TAC marines could win you the game if kept in reserves and hidden away on an objective. It is more about play styles though so I would try it out and see if it fits before committing.

Have you seen the Greek Minotaur modeling and painting posted?

 ansacs wrote:
Siege list
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/S/Siege_Assault_Van.pdf

I have a philosophy of either taking a credible threat or take more scoring. A single razorback is not really a credible threat and has a very small chance of actually destroying a vehicle before being killed. Another squad of TAC marines could win you the game if kept in reserves and hidden away on an objective. It is more about play styles though so I would try it out and see if it fits before committing.

Thanks for the link. The Siege Vanguard list is interesting (and I like those mantlets). Now if only I could get mantlets and two special weapons in a single unit... Ah well.

I agree on the Razorback by itself; it's more intended to complement what I already have (with assault cannons; with the lascannon, it becomes a patch for AP2). And with 5-6 other vehicles in the list, I'm hoping that there's a fair bit of target saturation present. Although I'm never averse to more bodies. So many choices... For my armies, I try to get something of everything - a TAC list, if that term means anything these days. I've got Moloc and his Pain Train for busting tough units, Aiakos and the Mortis can rip up hordes - the latter can also handle Flyers. Thunderfires are for hordes, Storm Talon deals with Flyers and isolated units. So I look at my list and thought... I need a little something extra for popping armour.

Just my own thought process.

I'm forever finagling my lists and testing various new combos. My Nurgle army has three different forms (soon to be 4 once I get my zombies up and lurching).

Have you seen the Greek Minotaur modeling and painting posted?

I have not. I usually stay out of Painting because it depresses me. I like to think I'm a decent painter and passable converter, but I see some of the paint jobs and conversions there and just feel sad.

One of the great things about the siege mantlets is you can combat squad and both units still benefit. Combat squading a lascannon or MM into one squad to hide in a fortification is brutal when you can reroll saves.

I understand what you mean. I don't think I have taken the exact same list in years.

Greek Style