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I've been going back over some lists and trying to take a fresh look at different units. One that stands out, at least on paper, is the V'assaasin.

For those that have been using him on the tabletop, what has been your experience? I don't think I've seen anything other than "missed again, thanks a lot vindicare!" in battle reports. But it can be hard to find GK reports at times. So, I suppose my question boils down to has he been worth it for you or just been a great in theory but frustrating in gameplay kind of guy?

Thanks!

out of sheer curiosity, but how does BS 8 miss that frequently?

It depends on the game. I've had him pop 3 transports in a game, resulting in the staggered units being cut down by my guys. I've had him pop all sorts of stuff, and pay for himself many times. I've also had games where he gets killed first because people are scared, and he's worthless. And I've had games where he flat out just misses over and over.

I love him and take him in every list I can fit him in, but it really is hit or miss. He shines against vehicles with his turbo-pen, but that's his biggest use to me(and you have to know you'll still occasionally manage to get a bunch of 1s on those rolls).

He's an donkey-cave. Guy at my local puts him in an Aegis so he can hit flyers whenever he wants, he shoots my FnP banner carrier out of my bike squad, then blows the save off my lord. He's never gonna kill a gak ton, but he is one of the best debuffers on the table. Plus you can put the little donkey-cave anywhere you want.

He does need a body shield because even a basic tac squad will kill him in CC, but until you get to him he is quite a little dbag.

If you are playing Nids or IG you can pop synapse creatures or commisars/ squad leaders and bye bye orders and leadership and such. Against MEQ he's primarily taking out heavy/special weapons or shield saves.

Open Question: Does his save breaker round work vs. Knights? Because that would be a huge utility right now.

He also packs the best anti-tank gun in the game that does not have a D, with only the mighty rail cannon being a challenger (due to the insane range), his average roll to pen with the turbo shot is a 14, at AP1-nasty stuff.


His issue is that he is alone, and makes himself a huge target. not nearly survivable enough for his raw damage output makes him a huge target, and rightfully so-he can ruin the day to ANYTHING.
Even a super-heavy is likely to take a serious beating from him.

viewfinder wrote:
out of sheer curiosity, but how does BS 8 miss that frequently?

A 1 followed by a 4+ is a 1/12 chance of happening (unless I fail at math). Not unrealistic.

Same as 5th edition Terminators with FNP dying actually.

I am interested because I want to put.one in my Dark Angels army. bad thing is I can't seem to make him.cost me less than almost 300 points. I want to see if he's worth it.

While I personnally like him, he has two big problems:

-Survivability: He's THE glasscannon, as soon as your enemy starts to focus on him, he's dead

-Cover: hitting, penetrating, damage-roll When it just comes down to those three factors, the Vindicare is just about worth it, but vehicles can relatively easy get a cover save of 4+ to 5+ (and depending on the army, even a 3+ is fairly easy). And due to his glass cannon status, the vindicare will seldomly shoot more than three times per game.



Of course you can always do some silly advanced tactics like:
-putting him in a bastion, turning him into a Hammerhead-light

- putting him into a fortress of redemption with the frag-rocket upgrade (a special rule from stronghold assault let's you fire the weapon from the main tower -> line of sight + bs8 + allocating wounds from a s8ap3 pie plate), <-don't do this in friendly games!

- put him behind an ADL and let him use the Lascannon to snipe those T4 Warlords without eternal warrior

- put him into a chimera and use his pistol to give him some mobility (this ones from the forums, don't know how usefull it actually is)

I'm thinking of using him as part of my GK allies, I field UMs and usually have a MotF and TFC. I could put him in a building or ruins and have a cover save of 2+ for him. We'll see.

^that. ADL / Bastion + BS 8 and twin linked + wound allocation. You will miss 1/144 times with a str 9 weapon. Evil.

cod3x wrote:
^that. ADL / Bastion + BS 8 and twin linked + wound allocation. You will miss 1/144 times with a str 9 weapon. Evil.

BS8+TL is no better than BS5+TL. You can never reroll a reroll. So you'll miss 1/36 times, not 1/144.
But yeah - S9 + allocation is nice.

By himself he is a fire magnet. Even in 3+ cover (so a 2+ cover save for him) I see him cut down turn 1-2 as priority target #1 vs. the people I typically play with.

And yes that 1/12 odds of missing seems to happen to me far more than the averages would suggest even when he does live and have a viable target in range.

That said, everything people have said about his turbo-penetrator rounds is true, and provided you don't play with people who seem to think the firestorm krak-missile storm has no LOS to anything not directly above it? Is absolutely lethal in that particular combination.

I love the concept and he is has such fun rules, but generally for his points? toughness 4, two wounds, and a 4++ just aren't enough, and 36" range isn't long enough if he is in a bastion.

Shieldbreaker = Turn 1 Invalidation of a Knight's Invul save.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Shieldbreaker = Turn 1 Invalidation of a Knight's Invul save.

Is the Knight's invul save a piece of wargear or an inherent rule? Don't have the codex.

Ion Shield is wargear.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Shieldbreaker = Turn 1 Invalidation of a Knight's Invul save.

Is the Knight's invul save a piece of wargear or an inherent rule? Don't have the codex.

The Ion Shield is listed as Wargear in the Codex - but don't you have to inflict a wound for the shieldbreaker to work? The Knight is a vehicle

"And yes that 1/12 odds of missing seems to happen to me far more than the averages would suggest"

No it doesn't. This is perspective bias, but on even a moderate time scale, it happens exactly as the averages would suggest. Unless you aren't playing with fair dice. In a small enough sample, you can get more misses than expected, but you eventually will arrive at the average, so your bad "luck" becomes a "hot streak" eventually. You aren't unlucky, you just notice the misses way more because they aren't "expected".

Good point on re-rolling a re-roll, but wouldn't the first two rolls constitute the "roll to hit", which you would then re roll with TL? I don't have anyone who it matters for (unless you man a quad gun with a bloodthirster) so I don't use it.

cod3x wrote:
Good point on re-rolling a re-roll, but wouldn't the first two rolls constitute the "roll to hit", which you would then re roll with TL? I don't have anyone who it matters for (unless you man a quad gun with a bloodthirster) so I don't use it.

No. The high BS rules say that you get a re-roll with a different target number. TL gives you a re-roll. They don't mix.

viewfinder wrote:
I am interested because I want to put.one in my Dark Angels army. bad thing is I can't seem to make him.cost me less than almost 300 points. I want to see if he's worth it.

DA can take GK as allies? I thought that can only happen in "Comes the Apocalypse"??*

*I don't have the rulebook with me.

 Mr Morden wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Shieldbreaker = Turn 1 Invalidation of a Knight's Invul save.

Is the Knight's invul save a piece of wargear or an inherent rule? Don't have the codex.

The Ion Shield is listed as Wargear in the Codex - but don't you have to inflict a wound for the shieldbreaker to work? The Knight is a vehicle

You do, and even if you said wound = Hull point the shield breaker round cannot help much (S3 + D6 + Rending, means that you need to roll back to back 6s to do it.)

I've been using a Vindicare in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield, Ammo Store, and Emplaced Quadgun upgrades. Expensive yes but it gives me access to (practically) a Twin-Linked 2+ to hit, protection from simple glances on the building, and an automated quad gun that I can have the assassin fire for interceptor. The downside is the fact the bunker is low to the ground and placed before terrain. Love narrative terrain placement ("just place it whereever") but rolling it off and doing it by the book gets tricky.

It works moderately well; however, the largest issues are the 4+ to wound on the Vindicare (provided I use the Shield Breaker or Turbor-Penetrating rounds) and cover saves of my target. Vehicles and single model targets like heavy weapons and sergeants - works w/o issue. When I need him to remove that Shadow Field or double tap a Centurion Sergeant, he fails me. I know it's all dice and I have a 50/50 chance of succeeding but my perceptions from using him thus far has been rather lackluster on these key elements (and the primary purpose he's in there).

I'm still using him to try and see how things go once the dice gods smile upon me. He's a great, hard counter to some key models floating around the lists these days but the 4+ and inability to ignore cover is annoying. AP1, cannot be look out sir'ed - best assassin in the game...and yet can "miss" because a leaf or twig got in the way.

 Unholyllama wrote:
I've been using a Vindicare in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield, Ammo Store, and Emplaced Quadgun upgrades. Expensive yes but it gives me access to (practially) a Twin-Linked 2+ to hit, protection from simple glances on the building, and an automated quad gun that I can have the assassin fire for interceptor. The downside is the fact the bunker is low to the ground and placed before terrain. Love narrative terrain placement ("just place it whereever") but rolling it off and doing it by the book gets tricky.

It works moderately well; however, the largest issues are the 4+ to wound on the Vindicare (provided I use the Shield Breaker or Turbor-Penetrating rounds) and cover saves of my target. Vehicles and single model targets like heavy weapons and sergeants - works w/o issue. When I need him to remove that Shadow Field or double tap a Centurion Sergeant, he fails me. I know it's all dice and I have a 50/50 chance of succeeding but my perceptions from using him thus far has been rather lackluster on these key elements (and the primary purpose he's in there).

I'm still using him to try and see how things go once the dice gods smile upon me. He's a great, hard counter to some key models floating around the lists these days but the 4+ and inability to ignore cover is annoying. AP1, cannot be look out sir'ed - best assassin in the game...and yet can "miss" because a leaf or twig got in the way.

Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

 Kain wrote:

Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

Yes - this is still effective and works well - but I still would like to get the AP1 wound every once in a while too.

 Kain wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:
I've been using a Vindicare in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield, Ammo Store, and Emplaced Quadgun upgrades. Expensive yes but it gives me access to (practially) a Twin-Linked 2+ to hit, protection from simple glances on the building, and an automated quad gun that I can have the assassin fire for interceptor. The downside is the fact the bunker is low to the ground and placed before terrain. Love narrative terrain placement ("just place it whereever") but rolling it off and doing it by the book gets tricky.

It works moderately well; however, the largest issues are the 4+ to wound on the Vindicare (provided I use the Shield Breaker or Turbor-Penetrating rounds) and cover saves of my target. Vehicles and single model targets like heavy weapons and sergeants - works w/o issue. When I need him to remove that Shadow Field or double tap a Centurion Sergeant, he fails me. I know it's all dice and I have a 50/50 chance of succeeding but my perceptions from using him thus far has been rather lackluster on these key elements (and the primary purpose he's in there).

I'm still using him to try and see how things go once the dice gods smile upon me. He's a great, hard counter to some key models floating around the lists these days but the 4+ and inability to ignore cover is annoying. AP1, cannot be look out sir'ed - best assassin in the game...and yet can "miss" because a leaf or twig got in the way.

Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

Looking at the Codex it says "When a model is allocated a wound" so you have a cause a wound and it can't be a vehicle? Is that right?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:
I've been using a Vindicare in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield, Ammo Store, and Emplaced Quadgun upgrades. Expensive yes but it gives me access to (practially) a Twin-Linked 2+ to hit, protection from simple glances on the building, and an automated quad gun that I can have the assassin fire for interceptor. The downside is the fact the bunker is low to the ground and placed before terrain. Love narrative terrain placement ("just place it whereever") but rolling it off and doing it by the book gets tricky.

It works moderately well; however, the largest issues are the 4+ to wound on the Vindicare (provided I use the Shield Breaker or Turbor-Penetrating rounds) and cover saves of my target. Vehicles and single model targets like heavy weapons and sergeants - works w/o issue. When I need him to remove that Shadow Field or double tap a Centurion Sergeant, he fails me. I know it's all dice and I have a 50/50 chance of succeeding but my perceptions from using him thus far has been rather lackluster on these key elements (and the primary purpose he's in there).

I'm still using him to try and see how things go once the dice gods smile upon me. He's a great, hard counter to some key models floating around the lists these days but the 4+ and inability to ignore cover is annoying. AP1, cannot be look out sir'ed - best assassin in the game...and yet can "miss" because a leaf or twig got in the way.

Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

Looking at the Codex it says "When a model is allocated a wound" so you have a cause a wound and it can't be a vehicle? Is that right?

Just double checked myself - true. Have to have the wound. FAQ doesn't change it to a hit either.

yup, the wound can be saved, and still lose the invun. But you must cause a wound. Like I said above even if you treat HP= Wound, you chances of stripping the ION shield are quite low, about 5% chance for each shot. Which means once every 3-4 games you will strip the shield, assuming you shoot at it every turn.

You are better off just shooting the turbo penetration round at it every turn.

Never seen him used very successfully, though I did get to puppet master one and use him to kill Coteaz....heh

 Kain wrote:
Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

False. Wound allocation occurs after wounds are caused (see BRB p. 14-15). Therefore you have to shoot a knight's rear armor and roll a 6 and then a 5+ (3+6+3) to cause a glance and strip the ion shield.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

False. Wound allocation occurs after wounds are caused (see BRB p. 14-15). Therefore you have to shoot a knight's rear armor and roll a 6 and then a 5+ (3+6+3) to cause a glance and strip the ion shield.

...Angkor Wat?

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Note: Even if he fails to cause a wound, the shieldbreaker still denies him his save for the rest of the game.

False. Wound allocation occurs after wounds are caused (see BRB p. 14-15). Therefore you have to shoot a knight's rear armor and roll a 6 and then a 5+ (3+6+3) to cause a glance and strip the ion shield.

If Hull Points were wounds. Which they are not.