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Tis came up in a game last week:

 

infiltrating: 18" in sight or 12" out of sight.

 

My opponent seem to think that the 12" out of line of sight only applied to units within 12", so if my retributors were 20" away, but could see them, it ws still ok, since they infiltraors were out of LOS 12" away from say a sister unit.

 

Does 12" out of LOS apply to ALL units is wahta I'm asking.

I am pretty sure that the rules make direct mention that if you setup 12" away, then you have to be out of line of sight from every unit in the enemy army.  Playing as an all-infiltrating army, this is a rule I have read many times and that is my recollection of it.  Otherwise, it would be too easy to get infiltrators that close. 

Here is another question that comes up with the 12", no LOS rule, what counts as LOS from a vehicle?  Must it be a weapon mount LOS?  I've tried deploying a unit of infiltrators 12" away from a basilisk by being directly behind it before, as the earthshaker cannon and hull-mounted heavy bolter only have LOS to the front.  I stopped doing that when I came across a basilisk with a loading crew modelled on the rear platform, as then it seemed a bit silly to imagine they didn't have LOS to the infiltrators.

- Oaka

The 18" and 12" ranges apply to every enemy unit on the board. Meaning that you can infiltrate anywhere as long as every enemy unit that has LOS is at least 18" away, and every enemy unit that does not have LOS is at least 12" away.

Posted By Oaka on 04/10/2006 2:57 PM

I am pretty sure that the rules make direct mention that if you setup 12" away, then you have to be out of line of sight from every unit in the enemy army.  Playing as an all-infiltrating army, this is a rule I have read many times and that is my recollection of it.  Otherwise, it would be too easy to get infiltrators that close. 

Here is another question that comes up with the 12", no LOS rule, what counts as LOS from a vehicle?  Must it be a weapon mount LOS?  I've tried deploying a unit of infiltrators 12" away from a basilisk by being directly behind it before, as the earthshaker cannon and hull-mounted heavy bolter only have LOS to the front.  I stopped doing that when I came across a basilisk with a loading crew modelled on the rear platform, as then it seemed a bit silly to imagine they didn't have LOS to the infiltrators.

- Oaka

People let you do this? LOS has no requirement of being in a firing arc, the firing arc only restricts your fire. 12" would simply be measured from the hull.

Other than that you are right as even if they are across the board, if they see you no then there is infiltration closer than 18".

Posted By snooggums on 04/10/2006 3:40 PM

People let you do this? LOS has no requirement of being in a firing arc, the firing arc only restricts your fire. 12" would simply be measured from the hull.

I don't know about that. The rule states, "if no enemy unit can draw line of sight to them." p84

The only way that a vehicle can draw line of sight is from one of its weapon mounts. Line of sight FROM a vehicle is never determined simply by the hull. I think you might have a case there for deploying 12" directly behind a tank.

Why shouldn't scouts be able to sneak up behind a tank whilst its crew is preoccupied with what its weapons can see?

Line of sight for the vehicle itself is different thant the line of sight for a specific weapon.

FYI. When you deploy infiltrators closer than 18", it has to be "more" than 12" away...not 12" away. Check the lingo. Capt K

Posted By blue loki on 04/11/2006 7:32 AM

Posted By snooggums on 04/10/2006 3:40 PM

People let you do this? LOS has no requirement of being in a firing arc, the firing arc only restricts your fire. 12" would simply be measured from the hull.

I don't know about that. The rule states, "if no enemy unit can draw line of sight to them." p84

The only way that a vehicle can draw line of sight is from one of its weapon mounts. Line of sight FROM a vehicle is never determined simply by the hull. I think you might have a case there for deploying 12" directly behind a tank.

Why shouldn't scouts be able to sneak up behind a tank whilst its crew is preoccupied with what its weapons can see?

For the same reason you cannot sneak up on a Leman Russ that has only been firing forward even thought the turret is 360 degrees. Modern tanks even have back view and side view ports, why wouldn't the future ones?

Posted By snooggums on 04/11/2006 10:44 AM
For the same reason you cannot sneak up on a Leman Russ that has only been firing forward even thought the turret is 360 degrees. Modern tanks even have back view and side view ports, why wouldn't the future ones?

If the firing arc is 360 degrees, then obviously that weapon has LOS to the rear of the tank. However, something with only forward facing hull-mounted weapons will not have LOS to the rear. That is all I meant.

Posted By blue loki on 04/11/2006 10:55 AM

Posted By snooggums on 04/11/2006 10:44 AM
For the same reason you cannot sneak up on a Leman Russ that has only been firing forward even thought the turret is 360 degrees. Modern tanks even have back view and side view ports, why wouldn't the future ones?

If the firing arc is 360 degrees, then obviously that weapon has LOS to the rear of the tank. However, something with only forward facing hull-mounted weapons will not have LOS to the rear. That is all I meant.

As Iorek stated, LOS for each weapon is not the same as LOS for the vehicle. You are only restricted in firing as targets must be in both LOS and the weapons firing arc.

I don't have my rulebook on me at the moment, but I am 100% sure (I read this rule just last night) that in order to be infiltrating to 12" you have to be out of los of every enemy model that is on the table at that point in time. If there is any question to this still, I can put up quotes when I get home. Or somebody else can.

As to the whole vehicle thing....that's just weird. I have always used common sense and used the hull as there are bound to be vision slits and the like so that the crew has ~100% vision. After all, a tank with a commander modeled as sticking his head out and looking around is the same as one without the modeled commander for los purposes, so does it make sense to claim that you can sneak up on it? Possible, but unlikely (in real life...dur I know I ought to keep logic out of this >_<. I think that's what the 12"/18" rule is representing...or something...dur I'll stop here I'm becomming incoherent.

Posted By snooggums on 04/11/2006 11:05 AM
As Iorek stated, LOS for each weapon is not the same as LOS for the vehicle. You are only restricted in firing as targets must be in both LOS and the weapons firing arc.

Yes, but LOS from a vehicle is only ever measured from the weapon mounts. I have not found anything that states that there is such a thing as "vehicle LOS" as opposed to "weapon mount LOS". If there is such a thing I apologize, but I have not yet seen it written.

Having said all that, I believe the intention was that one should infiltrate completely out of sight (both ways) of the vehicle in question in order to be within 12".

I don't think it's a defined game term, Blue Loki, but I just meant LOS of the vehicle as "what can be seen from the vehicle".  Is LOS actually a defined term at all?  I know it's used in shooting to determine valid targets, but it's something external to the shooting process.

Hmmm, I was going with LOS as defined in the Shooting Phase. When a definition of a term exists I tend to always use that definition unless otherwise noted, even if that definition has little to do with the rule in question.

I like consistency.

But, perhaps you are right...

Line of Sight is defined in the shooting phase, but that doesn't mean it can't be referenced in other parts of the rules (as it has been in this case).

However, Line of Sight for non-vehicle models is drawn from the "model's eye view"; a very nebulous term that is left up to the players to decide exactly what it means.

For vehicles, unfortunately, the only guidelines we have is drawing LOS from the weapon mounts, so that is what I would personally go with.

I suppose it does mean that RAW infiltrating models could be set up behind a Basilisk, but they would also have to be out of LOS of the rest of the army. . .most likely it is a tactic that most gamers wouldn't even attempt to use even if they were aware of it.