Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SO, I'd really like to build a Mechanised Infantry army, using Infantry Platoons maybe supported by lots tanks. Any thoughts on if the new Astra Militarum codex adds anything in this regard? My immediate thoughts...

- Are Mech Vets still MASSIVELY superior to Mech Infantry Platoons? Vets are 10 points more expensive, but three special weapons and BS4. On the other hand, Platoons grant more orders, and each have a mini-vets squad at 30pts. As a rough comparison, 4 Vets squads have 12 special weapons or 8 special/4 heavy, BS4, 240pts +Chimeras. 3 Infantry Squads & 1 PCS is 7 special, 3 heavy, BS3, Orders, 180pts + Chimeras.
- Tank Commander useful generally?
- Chimeras have gone UP in points, but new lasgun rules means that practically an entire squad can fire out of one - again, affects Veterans too, though.
- Enginseers are now 0-3 - useful yet?

My vague army plans would be

- Tank Commander Squadron
- Infantry Platoons, all in Chimeras
- Hellhounds
- Tank Squadron
- Hydra Squadron
- Basilisk Squadron

Any ideas??

Mech vets took a hit, mech platoons lost nothing in firepower or survivability but take a +10 point increase. That said, depending on your army composition, the reduction on several key Russ variants may well balance this out.

With the amount of Chimeras you'll be bringing, there will be plenty of anti-infantry firepower from the multi-laser, HB and lasgun arrays. That leaves AT as the missing element, so go melta and Lascannon (or just one of those) for the infantry squads. If you want multiple Special Weapons, Vets are still the way to go in my opinion, as even if you only take 2 specials, you have the advantages of BS4 over a SWS.

For Commanders, the two schools of thought seem to be either A) a concentrated unit, 2 of the same tank as if you were using them in HS, use simply to fill the HW requirement, or B) two other tanks that are vastly different to the Command Tank (such as command punisher, 2 Vanquishers) to make maximum use of the Split Fire order. Personally, I'd go for Vanquisher commander, with MM and LC, and 2 Exterminators with HB. That way, if split-fire goes off, you've got anti-heavy-tank/MC from the Vanquisher and anti-infantrylight vehicle from the Exterminators, and on the occasion it fails, you're still getting a bunch of shots to force wounds/glances.

Hellhounds didn't really change, take a multi-melta for threatening multiple target types, use it to guard the flanks of your Chimera wall. Russes in the centre, flanked by Chimeras, flanked by Hellhounds.

Hydras are probably still outclassed by the Vendetta for AA, but are still pretty good, and cheap enough that a couple won't put too much of a dent in your list. Bassies will be competing with Russes for HS slots, so it's your call there. If you take Bassies, use a cheap conscript blob to bubblewrap them and sit on an objective with a Commissar.

Hope that helps.

Than sis, I hadn't quite realised the implications if the new chimera firing rules. Effectively, my four squads are all limited to two weapons each in any case, it's just the the veterans are bs4. The las gunners are always bs3 anyways...

Also hadn't realised the ramount of split fire this causes. A typical chimera unit can fire the chimera weapons at once target, the left array at another, the right array at another, and the squad special wepons at another!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Than sis, I hadn't quite realised the implications if the new chimera firing rules. Effectively, my four squads are all limited to two weapons each in any case, it's just the the veterans are bs4. The las gunners are always bs3 anyways...

Also hadn't realised the ramount of split fire this causes. A typical chimera unit can fire the chimera weapons at once target, the left array at another, the right array at another, and the squad special wepons at another!

Yeah, the Chimera can now hit a lot of targets. I think it's probably best to try and focus your fire as much as possible. One dead squad is better in most situations than 2 half-dead squads.

For only 155pts. you get 10 veterans with x3 Melts Guns in a Chimera or x2 Melta Guns and x1 Heavy Flamer which personally I like as it gives you a good balance, especially since heavy flamers are now only 10 points. Also Pask I think is best in a Punisher with heavy bolters and either one or two Demolishers or Exterminators partnered up in the same squadron. x20 rending shots at Ballistic Skill 4 is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you have a psyker squad with the tech priest in a Chimera behind the squadron ensuring twin-linked and Power of the Machine Spirit so you could split fire with both of the other tanks.

I don't think the Chimera passengers can split fire. I believe that you can fire the array that is on the target's side plus the two firing points. So it 'll be probably like this:
Left/Right ark: One array plus firing ports
Rear/Front: Firing ports. :(
Would love to be corrected though

 gmaleron wrote:
For only 155pts. you get 10 veterans with x3 Melts Guns in a Chimera or x2 Melta Guns and x1 Heavy Flamer which personally I like as it gives you a good balance, especially since heavy flamers are now only 10 points. Also Pask I think is best in a Punisher with heavy bolters and either one or two Demolishers or Exterminators partnered up in the same squadron. x20 rending shots at Ballistic Skill 4 is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you have a psyker squad with the tech priest in a Chimera behind the squadron ensuring twin-linked and Power of the Machine Spirit so you could split fire with both of the other tanks.

I feel strongly about wasting BS4 on a flamer of any kind. If you're running a Chimera anyway, it's a great way to get a H flamer.
24" Punisher Pask makes me think he'll die before he gets close enough to be as awesome as he looks on paper.

 alarmingrick wrote:

24" Punisher Pask makes me think he'll die before he gets close enough to be as awesome as he looks on paper.

I'm not sure about this, purely because of the flat-out order that can move a Russ between 13 and 18 inches on T1. Combine that with the 12" deployment zone and I think he'll be in range by T2 easily.

konst80hummel wrote:I don't think the Chimera passengers can split fire. I believe that you can fire the array that is on the target's side plus the two firing points. So it 'll be probably like this:
Left/Right ark: One array plus firing ports
Rear/Front: Firing ports. :(
Would love to be corrected though

From the codex: “To represent the unusual nature of these weapons, use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved. If the Chimera has suffered a Crew Stunned or Crew Shaken result, the lasgun arrays can only make Snap Shots. Lastly, each array may shoot at a different target to the Chimera’s other weaponry, though all lasguns in the same array must shoot at the same target"

Seems pretty clear to me that, although you need six models in the vehicle to do the firing, it's the Chimera that's doing the targeting ("chimera's OTHER weaponry). So, the squad can still select a target as normal (and can only make snap shot at cruising speed etc etc), while the las gun arrays do their own thing...

Dunno - might put it in YMDC!

gmaleron wrote:For only 155pts. you get 10 veterans with x3 Melts Guns in a Chimera or x2 Melta Guns and x1 Heavy Flamer which personally I like as it gives you a good balance, especially since heavy flamers are now only 10 points.

Agreed that vets are good value, but you can now only fire two of those special weapons out the fire points, so they lose a bit of utility as a mobile fire platform.

Whatever happened to that rules thing about heavy flamers firing from vehicles? If I put the temple with the narrow end at the fire point, then I'm targeting my own vehicle, and thus can't fire.

-snip-

I'm contemplating this:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p440-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations#bottom

 felixcat wrote:
I'm contemplating this:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p440-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations#bottom

From that link:

Pask in a punisher, gets divination and you have 29 heavy bolter rending shots twinlinked a turn, with tank hunter, and preferred enemy.

Pask just isn't as good if you take him as an ally, as you need him to be the warlord to get preferred enemy. Also, you only get rending on the turret gun. He is still good as an ally I suppose, but is definitely weaker and may not be worth his very high point cost.

Pask's heavy bolter shots aren't rending, its only shots from a punisher cannon or the exterminator autocannon.

This is understood. Still good though. Even without prefered enemy. You are also still able to prescience the squadron

Vets took a nerf in chimera only in the aspect of keeping them in their metal box as a firing platform.

What's happening, in my opinion, is a change in thought. With doctrines SO MUCH CHEAPER and the new orders, it's time to use the chimera for what it is.. a transport! Jump your men out, get into cover or fire and flat out the tank infront of them. Once they pop out you can order them to ignore cover, shoot and run, have precision shots, etc, etc. They gain quite a bit of utility out of the metal box... the metal box just gets them into range to use it.

 alarmingrick wrote:

I feel strongly about wasting BS4 on a flamer of any kind. If you're running a Chimera anyway, it's a great way to get a H flamer.

I don't see how your wasting a Vet with a 10pt. Heavy Flamer, especially with armies like Tyranids and new Orks rumored to be the next 40k book. Before it made perfect sense to run only three of the same weapon due to points cost but now that a Heavy Flamer is the same cost as a Melta I feel it gives your unit good balance as now you can disembark and handle both vehicles and infantry. Also the Split Fire order could come in handy in regards to this.

 ArbitorIan wrote:


Agreed that vets are good value, but you can now only fire two of those special weapons out the fire points, so they lose a bit of utility as a mobile fire platform.
Whatever happened to that rules thing about heavy flamers firing from vehicles? If I put the temple with the narrow end at the fire point, then I'm targeting my own vehicle, and thus can't fire.

If I remember correctly you had the narrow end against the hull of the vehicle and measure out from there, I am not sure however as I don't have my Rule Book in front of me so if anyone could clarify that would be great!

Yeah, mechvets are still the way to go. Platoons give you more orders, but you still can't give orders to units embarked in a chimera, and infantry squads are still only BS3 and can still only take a single special weapon. Orders sometimes make a single BS3 meltagun better, but 3 BS4 meltaguns are always just better.

Not to say that you can't take platoons, but the main reason why people did was to take more chimeras, which did get more expensive. Plus fluff reasons, of course.

Regular tauroxes are pretty pants, but I can almost see taking stormies for the prime just because they're a fast transport. They'd be part of a mech highland charge, wherein they can start turn 2 in your opponent's deployment zone. This relies to a dangerous extent on going first, though.

Russes did get a boost for mech lists. The biggest problem with mech lists was that the chimeras moved 12", but the russes only moved 6, which meant that the entire armored column, chimeras and all, moved 6. Now, though, there's a chance that front squad of russes can "run", which means the whole thing can scoot a little faster now.

Anyways, I see both the chimera charge and the armored column working much the same way they did before, except now with cheaper vehicle upgrades and much cheaper russes.

I imagine that they would work just the same as they did last codex, though.

As for new techpriests, they just seem to futzy. Are you really going to heal tanks on the go? Is PotMS, which only works like half the time, going to be that helpful? It seems like techpriests are going to be the most useful in gunlines where you can kind of hide them behind stuff and pass out buffs from the safety of deep cover and LOS blocking terrain.

Can you really pass on Punisher driven by Pask for 20 rending shots paired with a 120 pts eradicator?.. I mean eradicators were worth it when they were 160 pts and now they're really awesome. Yep, you can get ignore cover on your troops with orders but at 120 pts it's just a crime not to take a 14-13-10 vehicle. Besides, there are almost alwayz enough targets for everyone.

I'm gona use a punisher (multi-melta sponsons, lazcannon, dozer, Pask) + Eradicator (HB sponsons, dozer) and some camouflage vets with 3 sniper rifles as an allied detachment for my orkses. I used to run an exterminator with Pask (hb sponsons, lazcannon) but with the changes to krak-shot not adding 1 str but giving a reroll to pen i think that multi-meltas are gona be better just cause punisher's not gona use hb with same effect of making them s6 vs vehicles. This tank was 235 pts and if i wanted to add dozer it cost 10 pts making it 245, besides, it needed to remain stationary to get krakshot. Now i get 20 s5 rending shots, 2 multimeltas, 10 pts lazcannon down from 15, dozer, permanent tankhunter and ability to issue useful orders at ld9 for the same 235 pts. The tax is another leman russ which is not actually bad with split-fire at ld9. Besides, an expensive tank could use some protection that squadron provides.

Primaris psyker could be an awesome multiplier but he needs a platoon to hide in and i'd prefer more green at the front.

I think depending on the opponent and the army composition the Punisher will not be the ideal choice for Pask.

I can see armies that want to engage at long range like Tau will likely be more inclined to be scared of pask in a Vanquisher. The Punisher might not even make it to the Tau lines if they bring Hammerheads or give tank hunter to a str 8 or 9 unit with a buffmander.

The more they focus on 2 14-13-10 vehicles - the more wagonz reach the lines. I'd actually prefer to loose a leman russ rather than a wagon loaded with boyz. So, for orkses, ig allies have gone way better! However, i got to think what to do with my CCS not to waste models. Probably convert them to something. Maybe to ammo runts! Or even to "count as grots" in a runtherd squad. Maybe to some sort of warboss advisors, we'll see what apears in new ork dex Ig allies ftw! Leman russes have gone much better with this update. Whice chimera vets have taken a hit. So are spammed vendettas - but they should have gone up in price - still a good deal.

 Paradigm wrote:
Mech vets took a hit, mech platoons lost nothing in firepower or survivability but take a +10 point increase. That said, depending on your army composition, the reduction on several key Russ variants may well balance this out.

With the amount of Chimeras you'll be bringing, there will be plenty of anti-infantry firepower from the multi-laser, HB and lasgun arrays. That leaves AT as the missing element, so go melta and Lascannon (or just one of those) for the infantry squads. If you want multiple Special Weapons, Vets are still the way to go in my opinion, as even if you only take 2 specials, you have the advantages of BS4 over a SWS.

For Commanders, the two schools of thought seem to be either A) a concentrated unit, 2 of the same tank as if you were using them in HS, use simply to fill the HW requirement, or B) two other tanks that are vastly different to the Command Tank (such as command punisher, 2 Vanquishers) to make maximum use of the Split Fire order. Personally, I'd go for Vanquisher commander, with MM and LC, and 2 Exterminators with HB. That way, if split-fire goes off, you've got anti-heavy-tank/MC from the Vanquisher and anti-infantrylight vehicle from the Exterminators, and on the occasion it fails, you're still getting a bunch of shots to force wounds/glances.

Hellhounds didn't really change, take a multi-melta for threatening multiple target types, use it to guard the flanks of your Chimera wall. Russes in the centre, flanked by Chimeras, flanked by Hellhounds.

Hydras are probably still outclassed by the Vendetta for AA, but are still pretty good, and cheap enough that a couple won't put too much of a dent in your list. Bassies will be competing with Russes for HS slots, so it's your call there. If you take Bassies, use a cheap conscript blob to bubblewrap them and sit on an objective with a Commissar.

Hope that helps.

I'd agree with most of this but also note that the poor Hydra got yet another nerf by now having to pay to not be open topped and no longer ignoring jink saves.

Hydras really need to be squadronned, not only so you can get more shots; but so they won't get wiped out by the first flier that swoops in across the board and shoots them/the first serious anti-tank that targets them. Squadronning them also lets you get more shots without taking other very competetive HS slots.

But yes, Vendettas are still superior at clearing the skies.

It's almost a shame how what used to be the definitive anti-air unit in 40k has become such a pale shadow just as it finally got it's own Citadel model.

That being said they probably fit this list better than Vendetta spam, and most of your allies can only bring in a single anti-air platform and I'm dubious if bringing in triple Tau missilesides would fit what the OP has in mind even if it is by far the most devastating anti-air in the game due to putting out a ridiculous number of shots from platforms that can shrug off most flier fire.

If really set on Anti-air while staying true to the Mech theme, I'd recommend a squadron of three hydras and an allied Stalker or Hunter (or allying in a forgeworld guard list for another squadron of hydras) with that one fortress that has self-firing anti-air platforms.

If you can get the forgeworld list, the fortress is skippable.

Though the lack of interceptor and the loss jink ignoring is very painful, most fliers and skimmers would rather not be targeted by twelve TL'd autocannon skyfire shots.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
- Are Mech Vets still MASSIVELY superior to Mech Infantry Platoons?

Yes. One of your biggest limiting factors in a mech IG list is the cost of the transports. You can only afford a limited number of Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas, so you need the squads in them to be as effective as possible. A Chimera with a platoon squad and a single BS 3 melta gun is 125 points, or you can take a veteran squad with three BS 4 melta guns for 155 points. For a mere 24% more points you get a 166% increase in melta firepower, and that's assuming you never disembark and can only fire two of the veteran squad's melta guns. If you're willing to disembark to kill a priority target then it's a 300% increase.

 Kain wrote:
Though the lack of interceptor and the loss jink ignoring is very painful, most fliers and skimmers would rather not be targeted by twelve TL'd autocannon skyfire shots.

I was really hoping for some Intercept somewhere, but no luck.
Don't forget Fortifications, though.
Both the ADL and lots of stuff in SA can get Quad Guns.
It's not that fluffy for a Mech army to use bunkers or walls, but the choice is there.

Since the doctrines for vets are so much cheaper, could you feasibly do a mixed bag?

CCS in chimeras, with some vets in Chimeras, but others on foot bringing up the rear? You could give them the better cover save or better armor in general, they could hide behind the tanks/buildings... obviously they'd be vulnerable and squishy but I'd assume the other big hitters would be priority targets.

Would free up some points as well with the new chimera + CCS points bump, maybe enough for another LR/sentinels/Primaris psykers and such?

Does anyone see any point in using the taurox over the chimera? Its got slightly better guns, better fire points and rought terrain mod for 15 points less, but I'm still not sold on its fragility.

 EmilCrane wrote:
Does anyone see any point in using the taurox over the chimera? Its got slightly better guns, better fire points and rought terrain mod for 15 points less, but I'm still not sold on its fragility.

Well, its got a more consistently useful gun, but the Chimera still has volume of fire, or can run the hull heavy flamer for horde control on top of the mulitlater.

The firepoints are largely the same; the chimera is two out the top, or the Taurox has two on either side, but you'll only ever be using one of the firepoints anyways and they are on the side which is a little more restrictive than the top hatch on the Chimera.

The ATV thing is okay, but, like you, not convinced with AV11 front armour. Also to consider, it can't carry a squad and an IC, which means you'll need to run chimeras if you're running a mech list with ICs like Psykers and the such.

That and its an ugly model. Though Secret Weapon does do that cool 6x6 vehicle.

I think the Taurox is okay. If you're making a whole mechanized army, the points really add up, as does the firepower. You might lose stuff faster, but it's not like side armor was impossible to get on a Chimera anyway. I think the side embarkation points have some utility for vets also. The thing that reallys stops me from thinking the Taurox can really be excellent is the 10 man troop capacity. You can't throw in any supporting characters except with a PCS or CCS.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Agreed that vets are good value, but you can now only fire two of those special weapons out the fire points, so they lose a bit of utility as a mobile fire platform.

Whatever happened to that rules thing about heavy flamers firing from vehicles? If I put the temple with the narrow end at the fire point, then I'm targeting my own vehicle, and thus can't fire.

You ignore the hit against the vehicle.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

- Infantry Platoons, all in Chimeras

This is now objectively inferior to mech vets. Before mech platoons had some advantages, they were cheaper, their command squads could tote a lot of special weapons, and they had special weapon and heavy weapon squads for support. Now due to the price increase of chimeras and the price decrease of vets, ten more points gives you access you to two additional special weapons, doctrines (which are cheap now), and BS 4. Command Squads can still carry more special weapons, but since chimeras only have two firing ports it is pretty much a moot point. The only thing platoons have going for them are special and heavy weapon squads, which are pretty meh, and can't be used if you want everyone mechanized.

I mean fluffwise it probably makes more sense than mech vets, and I still plan to run it personally because I prefer that my guardsmen be expendable, but vets getting a points drop pretty much ruined the usefulness of mech platoons.

Just to explore the thought, I wonder if Taurox are the preferred transport for mech platoons (assuming someone wants to run them). Squads are cheap, Taurox are cheap, and the 10-man limit is not an issue.

Infantry Squad, Flamer, and Taurox is 105 points. The infantry score and provide crowd control, the Taurox provides the squad's heavy weapon. PCS can take the heavy hitting special weapons.

PCS, 4 Meltas, Taurox = 120
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105

PCS, 4 Meltas, Taurox = 120
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105

PCS, 4 Meltas, Taurox = 120
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Taurox = 105

990 points, 9 mechanized scoring units, 12 meltaguns, 6 flamers, 9 TL autocannons. You've got a lot of points left over for tanks. You don't really need a CCS in this format, so you could go with a Tank Commander, and any of the first 3 Warlord traits would be pretty great for this army.

You could do the same thing with bare-bones Vets, I guess, but you're not getting any orders, and you have an upper limit of scoring units.