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Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





I'm playing an obscene WAAC chump next week who runs two helldrakes. He seems to think they can vector strike over a unit and inflict the hit on any individual model they fly over or something. My understanding (which ain't great as I'm pretty new to flyers) is that its a 'shooting attack' and resolved from a direction against the nearest model.

So overall really confused as to how these things work. Could someone help a guy out, the RB entry for vector strike isn't making it clearer
   
Made in be
Kelne





That way,then left

Neither of you is right, random allocation
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Random allocation
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Sweet. While I'm here, where on the model do you measure the 12" for torrent? We had flamers coming from the wings and gak. Is that legal?
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Illegal, we are instructed to use the base of the model when measuring this 12 inch bubble.
This was explained best in one of the Frequently Asked Questions that we are still waiting to come back to the site.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/13 21:51:05


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Thanks. Both of those rulings take a little edge off of the drake
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.
   
Made in us
Disbeliever of the Greater Good



Cincinnati

Fragile wrote:
Random allocation


Where does it state to use random allocation? I'm always arguing with the FMC Players in my area whether it's the point of impact on the squad or if it's the nearest model to the FMC after it's finished moving.

The other issue we've had is when vector striking Imperial Knights. Imperial knights gain a 4+invul on a facing of the owning players choice. Vector strikes hit side armor. How do you determine which side is hit in the case that one side has the invul save?
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

The best place to find that answer is the Frequently Asked Questions, where it out-right states to use Random Allocation.

As for the Side Armour there are several lines of thoughts and I would recommend looking for a previous thread on the matter when the search function has been re-indexed. I was going to try and pull out the most common conclusions that past discussions on that fact brought to light but I doubt they can be done justice at 2:30 in the morning. Needless to say there is several interpretations and quite a few suggested House Rules to try and make it less of a concern. However I will point out that, from a pure Rule as Written view point, it is impossible to gain a Invulnerability save because the attack is not being resolved against either the Left or Right side... just an undefined 'side.'

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Acctually since vector strikes use random allocation to units, best way to do it is to randomly select a side facing that its hitting.

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Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save
RAI: Hitting side armour represent the FMC/Heldrake striking the top of the vehicle, the shield cannot be placed on top, the Knight doesn't get the save

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 09:18:19


 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





FAQ is available on Black Library for CSM
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/Chaos-Space-Marines.pdf
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save


So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save


So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.


Ahhh, but how do you determine WHICH side the vector strike hits? The side that was chosen for the shield or the other side? I think that is DRs point, that the Knight has to choose a specific side and the Vector Strike can (by RAW) be hitting either or even both sides.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 16:58:54


Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 welshhoppo wrote:
Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

You choose the facing of the shield when the IK is deployed, and you can reposition it during your opponents shooting phase.

The shield is always up on the facing you choose from the start of the game, so there could be a shield on the left side or right side during the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 don_mondo wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save


So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.


Ahhh, but how do you determine WHICH side the vector strike hits? The side that was chosen for the shield or the other side? I think that is DRs point, that the Knight has to choose a specific side and the Vector Strike can (by RAW) be hitting either or even both sides.

Exactly if the VS hits "side armour" that includes left and right side. RAW VS hits both sides, as it hits "side armour"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 17:00:01


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





 DeathReaper wrote:
 welshhoppo wrote:
Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

You choose the facing of the shield when the IK is deployed, and you can reposition it during your opponents shooting phase.

The shield is always up on the facing you choose from the start of the game, so there could be a shield on the left side or right side during the movement phase.



Ah okay, I've never played a IK yet so I wasn't sure.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

its side armor, now it doesnt say which but as its controling players turn eg they decide right, if it came down to that. so a knight in this example really wont benefit. the str 7 his from a drake is against its side armor profile

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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
its side armor, now it doesnt say which but as its controling players turn eg they decide right, if it came down to that. so a knight in this example really wont benefit. the str 7 his from a drake is against its side armor profile

That is not at all correct. the controlling player does not get to pick a side for the Vector Strike to hit. it simply hits "side armour"

You are thinking about the controlling player getting to choose the order that simultaneous rules happen in. Which of course has no bearing on Vector Strike and any subsequent saves that may or may not be available.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/25 20:51:57


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

RAW: unknown.

That said, the only way I've seen it ruled (and granted it was a small local tourney), was that regardless of which AV you are using to resolve the attack (i.e. side armour for barrage and VS), if the model is in the facing that is protected, it gets the save.

The TO never did answer me on what happens if the VS model left the board...

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Happyjew wrote:

The TO never did answer me on what happens if the VS model left the board...


I've always played it that you can vector strike off the board, as it simply states "a unit that it passed over in the movement phase" or some such statement (not got a rulebook to hand).

personally, I'd play it as the side the model is facing prior to movement - it strikes it as it flies over, it doesn't lash out backwards so much as slam into its target. that's the way I see it, anyway. with no set rules for it, I'd play it the "how it'd work in the real world" scenario.

12,300 points of Orks
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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

I think HappyJew's comment was more on the Tournament Organizers rule, in which the side being hit is the closest to the Heldrake. It is one of several solutions that has been presented to correct this particular problem, that we use the side Armour Value for resolving the attack but consider the hit to still be against the side facing the Heldrake. While it does have some simplicity, I find fault with this method from a Rule as Written point of view. The original instructions for resolving hits against a vehicle use the words 'resolve against the side facing' while the Vector Strike rules state to 'resolve against the side armor.' In this situation we have two Rules using the same terminology and people trying to state that the Resolve for vector strike is somehow different to the Resolve for the original method.

However, that is a side point, as HappyJew's comment was directly in relation to how you resolve a Heldrake flying off the table and therefore not facing any side....

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 DeathReaper wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save


So Left side is not a part of "side armour"?


Choosing the left side give the Knight a 4++ invulnerable save against any pens/glances that are resolved against it's left side armour, Vector Strike is not resolved against "left side armour".

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Choosing the left side give the Knight a 4++ invulnerable save against any pens/glances that are resolved against it's left side armour, Vector Strike is not resolved against "left side armour".


Slight correction, the IK gets a 4++ against all hits on that facing.

"The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of your opponent’s next Shooting phase." (Codex IK's)

Vector strike reads:
"Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour."(BRB 43)

If the shield is on the left side, that is a part of "the target's side armour" where the VS hits are resolved.

So if you hit "side armour." that includes left and right side as they are both "side armour."

VS hits both the left and right side as it simply is "resolved against the target's side armour."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/26 21:31:42


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

There is no rule that says a hit can hit multiple facings.

There is a lack of clarifaction on GW's part on how these 2 rules interact, and because of that there is no correct answer to what to do when it comes up.



insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

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Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

im certain that due to the "cinematic" nature of the vector strike the RAI would have been "..resolved against the side armor VALUE"

but ofcourse GW left out the last word out.

it doesnt specify which side it hits so that leaves it up in the air thanks GW your amazing

CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts


 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?


It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 PrinceRaven wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?


It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

So the side armor does not include Left side armor?

Basic English proves your statement to the contrary incorrect.

Left and right side armor are both side armor...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

 DeathReaper wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?


It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

So the side armor does not include Left side armor?

Basic English proves your statement to the contrary incorrect.


This is a 40k rules discussion, not an English lesson.

Left and right side armor are both side armor...


Other way around, side armour is a characteristic that is used by both the left and right side armours, so if you hit either facing you resolve the hit against side armour, but resolving against side armour does not necessarily mean you have hit either side.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






The side armour value is used as a stand-in for the top armour. The front and rear armour values are set, side is everything else.

When this question was discussed here recently, someone supplied previous edition rule background to explain where this is coming from

   
 
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