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I'm playing an obscene WAAC chump next week who runs two helldrakes. He seems to think they can vector strike over a unit and inflict the hit on any individual model they fly over or something. My understanding (which ain't great as I'm pretty new to flyers) is that its a 'shooting attack' and resolved from a direction against the nearest model.

So overall really confused as to how these things work. Could someone help a guy out, the RB entry for vector strike isn't making it clearer

Neither of you is right, random allocation

Random allocation

Sweet. While I'm here, where on the model do you measure the 12" for torrent? We had flamers coming from the wings and gak. Is that legal?

Illegal, we are instructed to use the base of the model when measuring this 12 inch bubble.
This was explained best in one of the Frequently Asked Questions that we are still waiting to come back to the site.

Thanks. Both of those rulings take a little edge off of the drake

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Fragile wrote:
Random allocation

Where does it state to use random allocation? I'm always arguing with the FMC Players in my area whether it's the point of impact on the squad or if it's the nearest model to the FMC after it's finished moving.

The other issue we've had is when vector striking Imperial Knights. Imperial knights gain a 4+invul on a facing of the owning players choice. Vector strikes hit side armor. How do you determine which side is hit in the case that one side has the invul save?

The best place to find that answer is the Frequently Asked Questions, where it out-right states to use Random Allocation.

As for the Side Armour there are several lines of thoughts and I would recommend looking for a previous thread on the matter when the search function has been re-indexed. I was going to try and pull out the most common conclusions that past discussions on that fact brought to light but I doubt they can be done justice at 2:30 in the morning. Needless to say there is several interpretations and quite a few suggested House Rules to try and make it less of a concern. However I will point out that, from a pure Rule as Written view point, it is impossible to gain a Invulnerability save because the attack is not being resolved against either the Left or Right side... just an undefined 'side.'

Acctually since vector strikes use random allocation to units, best way to do it is to randomly select a side facing that its hitting.

RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save
RAI: Hitting side armour represent the FMC/Heldrake striking the top of the vehicle, the shield cannot be placed on top, the Knight doesn't get the save

FAQ is available on Black Library for CSM
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/Chaos-Space-Marines.pdf

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save

So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save

So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Ahhh, but how do you determine WHICH side the vector strike hits? The side that was chosen for the shield or the other side? I think that is DRs point, that the Knight has to choose a specific side and the Vector Strike can (by RAW) be hitting either or even both sides.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

You choose the facing of the shield when the IK is deployed, and you can reposition it during your opponents shooting phase.

The shield is always up on the facing you choose from the start of the game, so there could be a shield on the left side or right side during the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save

So Left side is not a part of "side armour"? That statement is demonstrably incorrect.

Ahhh, but how do you determine WHICH side the vector strike hits? The side that was chosen for the shield or the other side? I think that is DRs point, that the Knight has to choose a specific side and the Vector Strike can (by RAW) be hitting either or even both sides.

Exactly if the VS hits "side armour" that includes left and right side. RAW VS hits both sides, as it hits "side armour"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Doesn't vector strike happen at the end of the movement phase? I thought the Knight's shield came on during the shooting phase, so the shield wont be on when it hits.

You choose the facing of the shield when the IK is deployed, and you can reposition it during your opponents shooting phase.

The shield is always up on the facing you choose from the start of the game, so there could be a shield on the left side or right side during the movement phase.

Ah okay, I've never played a IK yet so I wasn't sure.

its side armor, now it doesnt say which but as its controling players turn eg they decide right, if it came down to that. so a knight in this example really wont benefit. the str 7 his from a drake is against its side armor profile

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
its side armor, now it doesnt say which but as its controling players turn eg they decide right, if it came down to that. so a knight in this example really wont benefit. the str 7 his from a drake is against its side armor profile

That is not at all correct. the controlling player does not get to pick a side for the Vector Strike to hit. it simply hits "side armour"

You are thinking about the controlling player getting to choose the order that simultaneous rules happen in. Which of course has no bearing on Vector Strike and any subsequent saves that may or may not be available.

RAW: unknown.

That said, the only way I've seen it ruled (and granted it was a small local tourney), was that regardless of which AV you are using to resolve the attack (i.e. side armour for barrage and VS), if the model is in the facing that is protected, it gets the save.

The TO never did answer me on what happens if the VS model left the board...

 Happyjew wrote:

The TO never did answer me on what happens if the VS model left the board...

I've always played it that you can vector strike off the board, as it simply states "a unit that it passed over in the movement phase" or some such statement (not got a rulebook to hand).

personally, I'd play it as the side the model is facing prior to movement - it strikes it as it flies over, it doesn't lash out backwards so much as slam into its target. that's the way I see it, anyway. with no set rules for it, I'd play it the "how it'd work in the real world" scenario.

I think HappyJew's comment was more on the Tournament Organizers rule, in which the side being hit is the closest to the Heldrake. It is one of several solutions that has been presented to correct this particular problem, that we use the side Armour Value for resolving the attack but consider the hit to still be against the side facing the Heldrake. While it does have some simplicity, I find fault with this method from a Rule as Written point of view. The original instructions for resolving hits against a vehicle use the words 'resolve against the side facing' while the Vector Strike rules state to 'resolve against the side armor.' In this situation we have two Rules using the same terminology and people trying to state that the Resolve for vector strike is somehow different to the Resolve for the original method.

However, that is a side point, as HappyJew's comment was directly in relation to how you resolve a Heldrake flying off the table and therefore not facing any side....

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
RAW: Vector Strike hits "side armour", the shield cannot be placed on "side armour", the Knight doesn't get the save

So Left side is not a part of "side armour"?

Choosing the left side give the Knight a 4++ invulnerable save against any pens/glances that are resolved against it's left side armour, Vector Strike is not resolved against "left side armour".

You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Choosing the left side give the Knight a 4++ invulnerable save against any pens/glances that are resolved against it's left side armour, Vector Strike is not resolved against "left side armour".

Slight correction, the IK gets a 4++ against all hits on that facing.

"The Knight has a 4+ invulnerable save against all hits on that facing until the start of your opponent’s next Shooting phase." (Codex IK's)

Vector strike reads:
"Against vehicles, these hits are resolved against the target's side armour."(BRB 43)

If the shield is on the left side, that is a part of "the target's side armour" where the VS hits are resolved.

So if you hit "side armour." that includes left and right side as they are both "side armour."

VS hits both the left and right side as it simply is "resolved against the target's side armour."

There is no rule that says a hit can hit multiple facings.

There is a lack of clarifaction on GW's part on how these 2 rules interact, and because of that there is no correct answer to what to do when it comes up.

im certain that due to the "cinematic" nature of the vector strike the RAI would have been "..resolved against the side armor VALUE"

but ofcourse GW left out the last word out.

it doesnt specify which side it hits so that leaves it up in the air thanks GW your amazing

 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?

It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?

It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

So the side armor does not include Left side armor?

Basic English proves your statement to the contrary incorrect.

Left and right side armor are both side armor...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You did not answer my question.

Is Left side a part of "side armour" or not?

It is not, side armour is a characteristic value, left side is a facing that uses the side armour characteristic. Vector Strike does not hit facings, it is resolved against the side armour characteristic.

So the side armor does not include Left side armor?

Basic English proves your statement to the contrary incorrect.

This is a 40k rules discussion, not an English lesson.

Left and right side armor are both side armor...

Other way around, side armour is a characteristic that is used by both the left and right side armours, so if you hit either facing you resolve the hit against side armour, but resolving against side armour does not necessarily mean you have hit either side.

The side armour value is used as a stand-in for the top armour. The front and rear armour values are set, side is everything else.

When this question was discussed here recently, someone supplied previous edition rule background to explain where this is coming from