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Was told some things by some people I know that I really don't agree with and wanted some input on them.

1. Storm eagle rockets and death strike missiles have special rules saying they cannot fire directly. Several people have told me that this means they cannot fire within their minimum range. The thing is there are no direct fire rules in 6th ed, that was a 5th ed rule. The only limitation in the rule book on barrage weapons firing within minimum range is they cannot subtract the scatter by their BS even if they can see. I see this as either a sign of rules changes for 7th ed or just poor rules writing by the committee that wrote this codex.

2. A tank commander says it "must take one leman russ from those listed in the heavy support section" and "must include 1-2 other leman russ tanks from those listed in the heavy support section". Several people I know seem to think this means a tank commander takes up both an HQ and heavy support slot as it is taking a leman russ tank squadron in addition to a tank commander. Based on the wording I don't see how that is possible. It actually doesn't even mention a leman russ tank squadron at all, just the heavy support section as the location to find the rules and point costs for the tanks in question.

2) The squadron takes up a HQ slot. You take a LRBT from the HS section and "upgrade" it into a HQ.

1) I've been wondering about this myself. Logically, they would indeed not be able to fire within minimum range, but this is not covered in the 6th ed rules.

1. If they say they cannot fire directly then it means they follow the rules for indirect fire, meaning they scatter the full distance.

2. The rules for Tank Commander (I forget which at the moment) specify the squadron of 3 are an HQ choice.

 Happyjew wrote:
1. If they say they cannot fire directly then it means they follow the rules for indirect fire, meaning they scatter the full distance.

That is true, but the manticore and the deathstrike have minimum ranges. So what do you do with the minimum range, if they already fire indirectly past that?

If a weapon has the barrage type it can NEVER fire directly under 6th ed rules. It ALWAYS follows the barrage rules which specifically allow it to fire within minimum. The option to fire directly was lost between 5th and 6th ed.

---------------------------------

Okay, I found the leman russ squadron part, it's not in the actual entry where the points are listed.

It says it "counts as an HQ choice for the entire of the battle" (yes, the grammar error is in my copy) and that the commander "starts the game in a leman russ tank, leading a leman russ squadron".

Because it doesn't specifically say it no longer counts as a heavy support choice some people think it counts as both? To me that means it counts as an HQ choice and only an HQ choice. Is there any precedent for a unit taking up two slots on a FOC?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
1. If they say they cannot fire directly then it means they follow the rules for indirect fire, meaning they scatter the full distance.

That is true, but the manticore and the deathstrike have minimum ranges. So what do you do with the minimum range, if they already fire indirectly past that?

They have a minimum range. If they shoot within this range they fire indirectly as they already do.

So to answer your question, what do you do? You ignore it. At least for now.

This is not the first time that GW gave information that does absolutely nothing (see Spore Mine Clusters and Vibro Cannons, both have Strength caps they cannot reach).

 Happyjew wrote:
This is not the first time that GW gave information that does absolutely nothing (see Spore Mine Clusters and Vibro Cannons, both have Strength caps they cannot reach).

Also the C:MT warlord trait allowing deep striking squads in the warlords platoon to only scatter 1D6" when there are no platoons in that codex at all.
*sigh* GW writers...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
1. If they say they cannot fire directly then it means they follow the rules for indirect fire, meaning they scatter the full distance.

That is true, but the manticore and the deathstrike have minimum ranges. So what do you do with the minimum range, if they already fire indirectly past that?

This is one of my favorite "What was the point in that?"s in the new Codex: In 6th edition firing within Min rang is always indirect, so weapons that cannot fire directly never have actual minimum ranges.

It could be either forward writing(In case they return to under minimum range is direct fire); or a simple hold-over they never changed from the old codex

My bet is on holdover....

The barrage rule states "barrage weapons can fire indirectly". The important word here is "can". It does not say they always fire indirectly. It says they CAN.

When shooting at a target within minimum range or a target you do not have line of sight to you use indirect fire.

This means when shooting at a target BEYOND minimum range that you DO have line of sight to you do not have to use indirect fire which means you would fire following the normal rules for blast weapons. This is your direct fire option in 6th edition. Just a normal shooting attack performed like any other shooting attack with any other blast weapon except with the minimum range restriction.

This means the entire minimum range concept is in no way irrelevant. If you fire within minimum range or at a target you cannot see you roll full scatter. If you fire BEYOND minimum range at a target you CAN see then scatter is reduced by your ballistic skill as per any other blast weapon.

CaptainGnarr wrote:
The barrage rule states "barrage weapons can fire indirectly". The important word here is "can". It does not say they always fire indirectly. It says they CAN.

When shooting at a target within minimum range or a target you do not have line of sight to you use indirect fire.

This means when shooting at a target BEYOND minimum range that you DO have line of sight to you do not have to use indirect fire which means you would fire following the normal rules for blast weapons. This is your direct fire option in 6th edition. Just a normal shooting attack performed like any other shooting attack with any other blast weapon except with the minimum range restriction.

This means the entire minimum range concept is in no way irrelevant. If you fire within minimum range or at a target you cannot see you roll full scatter. If you fire BEYOND minimum range at a target you CAN see then scatter is reduced by your ballistic skill as per any other blast weapon.

The guns I mentioned cannot fire directly.

Making the Minimum range meaningless.

I made a thread for these things for a reason...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


The guns I mentioned cannot fire directly.

Making the Minimum range meaningless.

Yep sorry I get that now. It is indeed meaningless to have a minimum range on a weapon that always has to fire indirectly. My bad. Still trying to get all this figured out myself.

 LUTNIT wrote:

1. Storm eagle rockets and death strike missiles have special rules saying they cannot fire directly. Several people have told me that this means they cannot fire within their minimum range. The thing is there are no direct fire rules in 6th ed, that was a 5th ed rule.

Direct fire in 6th edition is normal shooting with a blast weapon. Most barrage weapons can fire directly at a target beyond their minimum range and within line of sight. If they have a special rule saying they cannot fire directly then they can never be fired like a normal blast weapon and must always be fired indirectly. So the people telling you they can't fire within their minimum range are wrong. But as with so many 40k rules it's not written as well as it could be and leads to these arguments.

This is what my previous post was meant to really be getting at.

Direct fire is not normal blast.

The only difference between barrage indirect and direct fire is restrictions on when it is/can be direct fire and BS scatter reduction(just that first bullet point for indirect)

All other rules for barrage are in effect no matter which mode the gun fires in.