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Is the game rules heavy like gw. I know i still need to buy rules books and codexs and models but are they as pricey like gw
Also how is the game play wise and such

Rules are free - decide for yourself: http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

Rules are free, there are only three books in total that cover all the armies, and Mantic says you can use any companies' models to play their games, so if you have a WHFB army already, you can likely use it already. Skaven and Lizards are the only two that would be difficult to pull off, but there are workable/not overpowered "fandexes" for them. KoW allows for all units to have a use, and you will win by your skill, not your uber magic spell going off or your 3++ re-rollable chosenstar.

zilka86 wrote:
Is the game rules heavy like gw.

Nope. Dowload the rules and give them a try, and prepare yourself for a shock. The rules can literary fit onto a single side of a4. Not just a summary, the whole rules. In KoW you do not fight the opposing army list like in WHFB, but the opposing player. It bears a resemble to chess in that respect.

zilka86 wrote:
I know i still need to buy rules books and codexs

Nope, just the main rulebook, unless you want to play as Basileans (palladin human army), Nature or Abyssl, in which case you need the Basilean Legacy, or Ogres, then you need Kings and Legends. But the core rules and base army lists are free on the Mantic site.

zilka86 wrote:
but are they as pricey like gw

Not even nearly. As a quick exmaple, in last year's spring sale on the Mantic website I picked up a whole Elf army for $64au delivered. That's over 80 models. Sure, it was a sale, but other online retailers sell at that price as standard.

zilka86 wrote:

Also how is the game play wise and such

See above. It's fast. In fact, here's a how to play battle report. IT's only a small battle, but one guy doesn't know the rules and the whole thing is over in 25 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d32Q6LHltwg

Really strange they have free rules what's the catch with that why would the give free rules and army list. very use to dealing with gw for games as they the only real gaming company out there that in business after any amount of time

zilka86 wrote:
Really strange they have free rules what's the catch with that why would the give free rules and army list. very use to dealing with gw for games as they the only real gaming company out there that in business after any amount of time

I suggest you keep giving your money to GW then.

zilka86 wrote:
Really strange they have free rules what's the catch with that why would the give free rules and army list. very use to dealing with gw for games as they the only real gaming company out there that in business after any amount of time

Giving away the base, or even all, the rules is more common than not these days.

Privateer Press do it with Warmachine and Hordes. Corvus Belli with Infinity. Warlord with Bolt Action, Saga and their other games, and so on and so forth.

It's not a catch, it's an invitation for you to try out a game without the fear of pumping a few hundred dollars in for books and minis before you know if you like it or not. That a company is confident enough in their rules that, even if they're available for nothing, that you'll come back for more is a better sign of quality than holding you to ransom with 'well you've already spent so much on it, you may as well stick around or all that money is wasted'.

It sounds like you already have some WHFB units. If that's the case I'd suggest dowloading the rules and adapting your existing armies to a KoW equivalent (many of the armies are interchangeable) and just giving the game a go. If you don't like it, you've lost nothing more than an hour of your time and around 500kb of bandwidth.

After reading the rules if you can call 15pages a rule set for a game . iam use to games having large rule sets to work. seem this just basic trail rules be for they add lots stuff i do like that you have stats for a unit and not each guy

zilka86 wrote:
After reading the rules if you can call 15pages a rule set for a game . iam use to games having large rule sets to work. seem this just basic trail rules be for they add lots stuff i do like that you have stats for a unit and not each guy

That's kind of the point. The original DBA rules were two or three B5 pages, and gave a satsifying, challenging games with historically accurate results. Too much more just slows down the game and causes arguments.

 .Mikes. wrote:

zilka86 wrote:
Really strange they have free rules what's the catch with that why would the give free rules and army list. very use to dealing with gw for games as they the only real gaming company out there that in business after any amount of time

Giving away the base, or even all, the rules is more common than not these days.

Privateer Press do it with Warmachine and Hordes. Corvus Belli with Infinity. Warlord with Bolt Action, Saga and their other games, and so on and so forth.

It's not a catch, it's an invitation for you to try out a game without the fear of pumping a few hundred dollars in for books and minis before you know if you like it or not. That a company is confident enough in their rules that, even if they're available for nothing, that you'll come back for more is a better sign of quality than holding you to ransom with 'well you've already spent so much on it, you may as well stick around or all that money is wasted'.

It sounds like you already have some WHFB units. If that's the case I'd suggest dowloading the rules and adapting your existing armies to a KoW equivalent (many of the armies are interchangeable) and just giving the game a go. If you don't like it, you've lost nothing more than an hour of your time and around 500kb of bandwidth.

Yeah. They recognise that GW are the market share leaders and that the way to get people to try out their rules is to offer them for free and allow you to use your existing models with them. All of these companies make a lot more money from model sales than rulebook sales, and so the "catch" is that they hope you'll buy some Mantic models down the line - but even if you don't, by playing their game you're creating more exposure for their game and getting it out there even more.

I've stopped playing WFB. I love the fluff and background still, but the game has gotten too bloated, with 25-odd years of rules stacked on top of one another and so many legacy systems needed. I prefer a fast game with tight rules that I can just set up and play without needing to refer constantly to three or five rulebooks' worth of special rules... Simple doesn't have to mean dumbed-down - it can also mean "elegant". Having said that, if you don't like the KoW rules it doesn't mean that you're "wrong" or a bad person - it's just personal preferences. The best thing is that it's free - give it a few games and if you like it, you've got another set of rules you can use your existing WFB models with - and if you dislike it, you're not out a cent!


I'm building/painting fielding several armies right now:

Ogres - made of old-school GW models and a few Mantic Ogres
Twilight Kin - made of GW Dark Elves and some GW High Elves (I'll split them into 2 separate armies later when I have more painted)
Basileans - Made of Rackham's Confrontation pre-painted models.
Kingdoms of Men - Made of my GW LotR Gondor figures (with Rohirrim to join later)

And if I can find my bloody Plaguebearer command group, I'll finally have an excuse and motivation to speed paint up my Nurgle Daemons to use as Abyssals.

I also need to resurrect my WFB Orcs into a KoW force. Which should be the easiest of all of those options to do but for some reason I've just not gotten around to it. Might be time for another of my emails to Doug...




I just wish they'd put up the Abyssal and Nature army lists on their site. The Basileans are there (and I own the Legacy book) but it's just easier to make up forces using the PDFs.

Mikes - you mentioned Saga rules online for free? Do you have a link? I've been wanting to try Saga out for a little while but my usual sauces don't have them in stock...

 Azazelx wrote:

Mikes - you mentioned Saga rules online for free? Do you have a link? I've been wanting to try Saga out for a little while but my usual sauces don't have them in stock...

Ah, my bad, sorry, I was thinking SAGA was made by Warlord, not Gripping Beast. I have seen PDFs of the rules available, but I'm at work and am limited on the net at the moment. I'll check when I get home, but google is probably your quicker friend.

zilka86 wrote:
After reading the rules if you can call 15pages a rule set for a game . iam use to games having large rule sets to work. seem this just basic trail rules be for they add lots stuff i do like that you have stats for a unit and not each guy

X-wing has a similar length of core rules, if not shorter, and is almost universally considered to be a fantastic game, even by the most die hard GW players. Same with Epic Armageddon. Make sure you're not confusing fewer rules with lack of depth because that really isn't the case.

I always thought games with fewer rules are for new people getting in to table top games and to really have a great table top game you need lots of rules. isn't xwing for kids as there's really not much to that game but one box with ever thing you need to play no other ships

No, you definitely need other ships for X-Wing. The core set works to get you learning, but if you play 1 X-Wing vs 2 TIEs for multiple games, you'll get bored fast. Shorter rules sets mean you can get the mechanics down much faster, they don't mean they're "for kids". Both X-Wing and KoW are far more tactical than Warhammer. WHFB and 40k only have the advantage of being around the longest-they're suggested by a large part of the community as the prettiest models with the weakest rules set.

How are them games at all tactical only game i ever played with any tactics was a civil war game with more rules then gw most table top games seem to lack any tactics .
also i didn't no xwing had more ships al i ever seen was the core game at target

The lighter rules are more tactical because how you use your units is more important than the special rules they have.

The KOW rules are less complex and more suitable for grand battles than the WFHB. Some [me] love this and others hate it.

Sounds like KoW probably isn't for you. You appear to be more interested in something with reams of rules and arguing that point over actually giving the game a go.

Also, I've just looked through your posting history and you appear to do this sort of thing a lot, and have started a LOT of quickly-locked threads.

I'm done here.

zilka86 wrote:
How are them games at all tactical only game i ever played with any tactics was a civil war game with more rules then gw most table top games seem to lack any tactics .
also i didn't no xwing had more ships al i ever seen was the core game at target

Well, for starters, manoeuvring matters in KoW.

With warhammer 8th edition, flank and rear attacks don't really do anything, in fact they're often a bad idea against strong units since they allow more models in the enemy unit to attack.

In KoW, flank and rear attacks are brutal, you double or triple your attacks and can wipe out a unit if you're careful with your moves or your opponent makes a mistake with their moves and leaves their flank/rear exposed.

zilka86 wrote:
How are them games at all tactical only game i ever played with any tactics was a civil war game with more rules then gw most table top games seem to lack any tactics .
also i didn't no xwing had more ships al i ever seen was the core game at target

Swing by Barnes and Noble and you'll likely see an array of ships; Target only carried the base game due to supply issues in the early goings, and recently many Targets dropped it entirely (buyers for big box stores don't like being told out of stock). It was cool if you were looking out for them to be on clearance as you could snag the game for $20 or less. Sites such as www.miniaturemarket.com also carry the full range and have pre-orders up for the upcoming waves.

And what you're mistaking with rules is that complexity = depth; there's not a 1:1 ratio there. Complexity CAN lead to depth, but it can also lead to pointless nonsense that bogs the game down in the name of simulation. For example, a game where you have to track each tank's ammo loadout shell-by-shell is great if you're into historical simulation, but it makes for a tedious game to try and play with a couple friends in an afternoon.

Depth comes from the player making choices, and having those choices be meaningful. Tactics are an obvious point of player choice. Do you send a formation to the left flank or the right? Do you charge out with a heavily armed/armored unit at the start, or hold them in reserve looking for a weak spot realizing that holding back a likely expensive unit will cost you in the early game. Those are choices you make that have a direct and obvious outcome.

Other choices you make go into the list you bring, which is where X-Wing in particular is a "rule-light, depth-heavy" game. What ships you bring, what pilots you put in them and what upgrades you give them have a HUGE impact on what tactics you should employ, and what weaknesses you have. With proper balancing like that game has, the inclusion of A means that you have to sacrifice B, and a smart opponent can exploit that. If you make a list generalized to cover as much as possible, you become weak to the specialized list. In your head you have to make those choices about what to focus on and how to mitigate your weaknesses.

Where GW games have fallen somewhat is they rely so much on randomness. While that's a decent representation of the chaos of war, it doesn't really make for a particularly good game. Why? Because it trivializes the player's choices. You had the right list and the right tactics and made all the right choices and the dice just screwed you, often in ways they wouldn't have in previous editions. Yes, doing everything right and still losing happens in war, but there comes a point where the level that GW chooses to employ crosses the line into what people would characterize it as "broken" because it happens more often than it doesn't. If the players choices lack meaning because the rules take it away, then your rules have created less depth in the game, and that's a bad thing.

zilka86 wrote:
After reading the rules if you can call 15pages a rule set for a game . iam use to games having large rule sets to work. seem this just basic trail rules be for they add lots stuff i do like that you have stats for a unit and not each guy

OP is obviously a troll, people. Don't feed the troll.

^ I don't think a troll would compliment part of the rules (unit stats rather than individual models). And anyway, the questions are ones worth answering and the info might be useful to others browsing the forum. It's always best to be nice.

A lot of people are used to GW with 500 page rulebook and codex with tons of rules and supplement codex with more rules and dataslates and expansions with even more rules. Massive rules bloat is standard for anyone coming from 40k or Warhammer, so KoW looking simple might come as a shock.

The hardback and expansions do have a little more complexity, there are a lot more magic items (about 60 in total) and expanded rules for magic with different offensive spells rather than just Zap!.

Anyway, the answer to the thread title is definitely "yes, it's a good alternative"... in fact most people who have played it have switched over to it as their main system since you can use all your warhammer minis with it without any problems.

 Azazelx wrote:
Sounds like KoW probably isn't for you. You appear to be more interested in something with reams of rules and arguing that point over actually giving the game a go.

Also, I've just looked through your posting history and you appear to do this sort of thing a lot, and have started a LOT of quickly-locked threads.

I'm done here.

I have literally no idea what are trying to say.

scarletsquig said: "...in fact most people who have played it have switched over to it as their main system...

As long as it can't be disproven, that's all that matters!

#thepresidentisaspacelizard

Yeah the OP is a less transparent troll than those who frequent the news & rumours threads.

In the event that anyone else looks at this thread, here's my opinion:

Yes, KoW is a fantastic alternative to WFB. The core rules are simple enough that a player generally plays without much guidance after turn 2 and with a couple of games under your belt it'll be a rare occasion that you need to open the rulebook. Even though the rules are simple, tactics are not. The game is still very dependent on tactics to win the day, far more than the army list or any uber special rule.

Really don't confuse a lack of complexity with a lack of depth. To take one example, Ballistic Skill. You take the models' BS and look it up on a flat table to find out what score you need to hit with when using a ranged weapon. Except why have the table? Just list the score you need to hit with in the models profile.

Similarly with the WS. You look up your WS against your opponents WS in a table to find out what score you need to hit them when in melee. Why? Elite units are hitting on 3's nine times out of ten, average units are hitting on 4's nine times out of ten and terrible units are hitting on 5's nine times out of ten. Why not just list those stats in the WS instead? Then if your uber unit is particuarly adept at dodging attacks then they get an extra point of toughness. Suddenly you don't need a table to determine what score you need to hit and hey! that's a whole layer of complexity stripped out with very little loss in depth.

Kings of War revolves around manoeuvring your units and committing them at the right moment. There are no uber units (well maybe except for Elohi) and magic isn't a game winner. It's a put-you-over-the-edge, give you an advantage at the right moment thing but it will never win you the game. Your tactics will win you the game.

 scarletsquig wrote:
As long as it can't be disproven, that's all that matters!

#thepresidentisaspacelizard

 sing your life wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sounds like KoW probably isn't for you. You appear to be more interested in something with reams of rules and arguing that point over actually giving the game a go.

Also, I've just looked through your posting history and you appear to do this sort of thing a lot, and have started a LOT of quickly-locked threads.

I'm done here.

I have literally no idea what are trying to say.

I'll break it down for you.

1) OP asked a question. Many of us answered in a quite friendly manner. Even if you consider the OP a troll, it's not necessarily a bad thing since most of our posts were friendly and explained the positives of KoW - which is good for new/other posters who might read this thread.
2) OP keeps arguing the point that the rules are too simple, and how can they be any good if they are simple? People reply, citing examples like X-Wing, etc.
3) OP keeps arguing the point that the rules are too simple, and how can they be any good if they are simple?
4) I check the OP's profile and posting history and read through a few. 385 posts and started 51 threads. That's a pretty high ratio. I take a look. 11 of those threads are locked. Again, that's a pretty high ratio. I read through some of them and I see the same nonsensical kinds of questions and "but whyyyyyy???" answers to sensible answers given, mangled grammar and punctuation, and quite a lot of people across quite a lot of threads responding that the OP is a bit of a serial troll. It's also entirely possible that the OP is very young or simply ...as clever as their writing suggests. Maybe all three.
5) I decide I'm not going to feed the troll any further since he keeps going back to 3) rather than appearing to actually be interested in KoW.

privateer4hire wrote:

scarletsquig said: wrote: "...in fact most people who have played it have switched over to it as their main system...

Squig, I'm as big a fan of Mantic/KoW as the next guy.
I think that part of your statement may just be the teensiest unproven.

I think that it has as much to do with his personal gaming community - my local group has also switched over, but I will not pretend that it is the norm.

It is merely indicative that my local group is just more discerning and intelligent.

Oh, and better looking, too....

(My local group really has switched over - we were pretty much sold by the second free version. Entire games with no rules arguments, and all the core army lists in the main rules. The latest edition of Warhammer held no interest for us, once we looked at the rules.)

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:

scarletsquig said: wrote: "...in fact most people who have played it have switched over to it as their main system...

Squig, I'm as big a fan of Mantic/KoW as the next guy.
I think that part of your statement may just be the teensiest unproven.

I think that it has as much to do with his personal gaming community - my local group has also switched over, but I will not pretend that it is the norm.

It is merely indicative that my local group is just more discerning and intelligent.

Oh, and better looking, too....

(My local group really has switched over - we were pretty much sold by the second free version. Entire games with no rules arguments, and all the core army lists in the main rules. The latest edition of Warhammer held no interest for us, once we looked at the rules.)

The Auld Grump

Yeah but by that anecodotes=data position, the game has been a total failure in multiple sites in the DC area (including up to Central MD and Northern VA).
And that's with demo folks providing both sides and purposely NOT bashing the opposition.
Wargaming, like politics, appears to be local