Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am not super duper familiar with the Allied Matrix, but Imperial Knights can they take Formations from Space Marine? Can they have a Detachment of Legion of the Damned?

Can a Imperial Knight army have a Allied Imperial Guard, Formation from Space Marine, a Inquisitor and a LotD detachment?

Anyway just a few questions.

The allies matrix in the Knights codex will have the level of alliance between the armies you listed.

Please stop posting no answers, it's really annoying if I understood it I wouldn't have asked.

Hollismason wrote:
Please stop posting no answers, it's really annoying if I understood it I wouldn't have asked.

okay, what exactly about the allies matrix in the Knight codex are you confused about?

Hollismason wrote:
Please stop posting no answers, it's really annoying if I understood it I wouldn't have asked.

Thing is that Dakka is not a replacement for a rulebook so in a case where you can just look in the rulebook then you'll be directed there. The only time rulebook quotes start coming out is when people are arguing points.

Again, please stop posting nonanswers and the stupid "Dakkadakka is not a rulebook". No gak it's not? Really?! Well there goes all of my plans for brining a hardcopy of Dakkadakka to a game and using that instead of the books I have.

The book doesn't include anything to say they can have formations or detachments or whatever. Just how they treat those armies and how they treat armies if they are chosen as a detachment.

I see nothing in there saying they can take a detachment of LotD or it counts as a "ally" or whatever.

Please again stop posting non answers.

This is literally the ally section:

Chart w/ a explanation that doesn't include inquisitorial or formations or LotD and then this

KNIGHTLY ALLIES
The Imperial Knights Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between Imperial Knights and the forces they may fight alongside. Imperial Knights readily march to war alongside the Titan Legions of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Ecclesiarchy’s Sisters of Battle and the tanks and infantry formations of the Imperial Guard, but at times in their storied history they have fought with certain xenos forces in the course of fulfilling their ancient duty.
Imperial Knights hold honour above all else, and will willingly sacrifice their own lives to aid an ally if they feel it is their duty to do so. They have long memories, and will never forget a favour or forgive an insult. Because of this, they make redoubtable allies and deadly foes.
Note that the Imperial Knights may have a different relationship to the models from an army’s primary detachment, and the models that make up that army’s ‘regular’ allied detachment (assuming there are any). For example, if an Imperial Knight was part of an army where the primary detachment were Imperial Guard and the allied detachment were from the Tau Empire, then the Knight would treat the Guardsmen as Battle Brothers, and the Tau as Desperate Allies.

INCLUDING KNIGHTS IN YOUR ARMY
When you choose an army, Knights may be taken as a special form of allied detachment known as an Imperial Knight detachment, as shown on the Imperial Knight Force Organisation chart below. Each box in the Imperial Knight detachment section of the Force Organisation chart represents a single Imperial Knight (of any type), which means that you can include up to three Knights for each primary detachment in your army. Just as with other allied detachments, you can include one Imperial Knight detachment for each primary detachment in your army.
An army may include an allied detachment of Imperial Knights in addition to a standard allied detachment. So, for example, you could field an Imperial Guard army with an allied detachment of Space Marines and an allied detachment of Imperial Knights.
Other detachments, such as additional primary detachments and fortifications, can be taken normally.



Please explain how that answers my question

If you cant figure that out then you really should be looking into ways to imprve your reading comprehension, and also ways to improve your attitude.


You are getting mad at people for not answering your question like you want, when most people (ones with normal IQ) can figure it out easily by just reading it.


Since you cant, you should be more humble in how you ask for help. You arent entitled to be given the world.






ON TOPIC:

The allies rules in the BRB explain exactly how allies work.

Battle Brothers can join each other and cast powers on each other.
Allies of convenience cant join each other but still act as normal.
Desperate allies dont count as scoring and dont like each other much.
Come the apocolypse allies cannot be taken unless your playing apocolypse. (note, this means that you can take ANY allies that are not come the apocolypse).

Hollismason wrote:
I am not super duper familiar with the Allied Matrix, but Imperial Knights can they take Formations from Space Marine? Can they have a Detachment of Legion of the Damned?

Can a Imperial Knight army have a Allied Imperial Guard, Formation from Space Marine, a Inquisitor and a LotD detachment?

Anyway just a few questions.

1) Formations and detachments all have allied relationships with other formations and detachments. As long as no two 'groups' have a come the apocalypse relationship then the ally matrix will not prevent you from taking any combination of groups.

2) Regardless of who your primary detachment is you may include any number of formations, and a single LotD detachment for each primary detachment in your army. Its not clear exactly how many inquisitor detachments you may include but you may always include at least one. Neither of these special detachments prevents you from including an allied detachment in your army. Keep in mind quiestion one. While taking theset groups does not prohibit taking any other group it does not mean you can field a legal army. For that you will need to make sure the fallowing allied relationsjips are all depserate allies or better.

Imperial Knights & Imperial Guard

Imperial Knights & Space Marines

Imperial Knights & Inquisition

Imperial Knights & Legion of the Damned

Imperial Guard & Space Marines

Imperial Guard & Inquisition

Imperial Guard & Legion of the Damned

Space Marines & Inquisition

Space Marines & Legion of the Damned

Inquisition & Legion of the Damned

And for that you need the ally matrix.

Excellent, lets *not* answer his simple question, and then when he gets frustrated... maybe mock him a bit... Sounds like a great plan.


The *only* people making this 'not a rulebook replacement' are not moderators. The *moderators* (at least both Yakface and Insaniak) have both said that answering simple questions like this is just fine. Even if the answers are in the BRB/codex.

If someone wants to know "all the upgrades and costs for a devastator squad" that is completely different. But people should get off of their high-horse and just answer the simple questions. If you want to be *really* helpful, answer the question and give a page reference. If you don't want to be helpful.... then just skip the post and move on.

Yeah but where does it say they can take formations or detachments? Is that a FOC chart in another book. The main BRB doesn't have anything on "formations" is that in Escalation? The LoTD book doesn't have Imperial Knights on the chart? I know they can.. RAI, Maybe? I just can't seem to find it other than a FOC someone in another thread made themselves explaining the FOC. This is with Imperial Knights as the Primary not as a Detachment for those armies.

Eihnlazer wrote:
If you cant figure that out then you really should be looking into ways to imprve your reading comprehension, and also ways to improve your attitude.


You are getting mad at people for not answering your question like you want, when most people (ones with normal IQ) can figure it out easily by just reading it.


Since you cant, you should be more humble in how you ask for help. You arent entitled to be given the world.






ON TOPIC:

The allies rules in the BRB explain exactly how allies work.

Battle Brothers can join each other and cast powers on each other.
Allies of convenience cant join each other but still act as normal.
Desperate allies dont count as scoring and dont like each other much.
Come the apocolypse allies cannot be taken unless your playing apocolypse. (note, this means that you can take ANY allies that are not come the apocolypse).

Maybe you should follow your own advice and realize my question isn't about a allied matrix or who is Battle Brothers but where it says Imperial knights can take a Detachment of Inquisitors, or a Detachment of LOTD or a Formation. Thanks!

Please don't turn this into insulting match.

As for your answer, I think the ability to take formations from those other supplements is actually in the BRB and the supplements themselves. So as for ally charts, I think you need to consult the book you're trying to use(in this scenario, you are right in that they're not there). Since the Legion of the Damned are in the Space Marine book as well, I'd say they're BB. The inquisitor's are in Grey Knights, so AoC? As for RAW, you are correct in saying they're not truly allies until the FAQ says so.

coredump wrote:
Excellent, lets *not* answer his simple question, and then when he gets frustrated... maybe mock him a bit... Sounds like a great plan.


The *only* people making this 'not a rulebook replacement' are not moderators. The *moderators* (at least both Yakface and Insaniak) have both said that answering simple questions like this is just fine. Even if the answers are in the BRB/codex.

If someone wants to know "all the upgrades and costs for a devastator squad" that is completely different. But people should get off of their high-horse and just answer the simple questions. If you want to be *really* helpful, answer the question and give a page reference. If you don't want to be helpful.... then just skip the post and move on.

It is the Teach a man to fish mentality.

If you give him the info he may be able to repeat it, but if he is challenged on it all he has to back him is "This person on the internet said..." which does not hold much water. If he finds the info via page, section or codex reference he is more easilly able to back up his claims with actual rules proof.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah but where does it say they can take formations or detachments?

The individual supplements (Like Lotd or the Inquisitor Dex) should have rules similar to the Knight Dex that states they may be taken as an additional detachment or some such similar wording like page 349 does in the Knights Dex instructing on how they can be added to a primary detachment, but you would have to look in each individual dex to find if it is there or not. I do not have the Inquisitor dex, but the wording should be fairly clear like it is in the Knight Dex about being able to be taken as an additional allied detachment.

Maybe you should follow your own advice and realize my question isn't about a allied matrix or who is Battle Brothers but where it says Imperial knights can take a Detachment of Inquisitors, or a Detachment of LOTD or a Formation. Thanks!

So you really dont realize, that ANY ARMY can take inquisitors or LOTD as long as they are not Come the Apocolypse?


I wont coment further cause you probably wont understand me.


Apologies to the others.

Well first off ANY army cannot take a Inquisitorial detachment or a LotD attachment so you're wrong on that.

It doesn't say that in the Inquisitorial book, it says that in the Imperial Knights book under their Ally Matrix Chart that they are battle brothers, but it doesn't say they can take a Inquisitorial Detachment or a LotD detachment because those books were released before the Imperial Knights detachment and those books don't include IK on their ally matrix.

Knights can ALLY but there is no " You can totes take a Inquisitorial as a detachment" OR LotD or Inquisitorial can take a Knight Detachment.

I can't find anywhere it says that Knights can take detachments from Inquisitorial because the Inquisitorial and the LotD book do not include them.

Again I think you fundamentally do not understand what question I am asking.

Knights as Primary Army
Can have an Ally could be one off their ally matrix, which would include LotD and Inquistion, but where does it say they are a seperate detachment not aligned against their normal ability to take allies?

You are correct, I do not understand your question. "where does it say they are a separate detachment not aligned against their normal ability to take allies?" What does that mean, it really does not make any sense to me.

Specifically this part "not aligned against their normal ability to take allies" what do you mean by this?



P.S.
The Inquisition book does not tell you how to use the Inquisitorial detachment?

It has to tell you how to get an Inquisitorial detachment into your force alongside the Primary detachment right?

It does it just doesn't have the Ally Matrix with Imperial Knights on it neither does LotD; that's the question does the Ally matrix in IK apply to the not using up a Ally detachment when selecting a IQ or a LotD.

Hollismason wrote:
It does it just doesn't have the Ally Matrix with Imperial Knights on it neither does LotD; that's the question does the Ally matrix in IK apply to the not using up a Ally detachment when selecting a IQ or a LotD.

Of course the earlier books wont have allies with the Knights Dex as the Knights dex was not out when those other Dex's were released.

Use the allies matrix in the Knight Dex to see how the Knights interact with other detachments.

If the IQ and LotD dex's say that they do not use up an allied detachment slot then they do not use up an allied detachment slot.

do the IQ and LotD dex's say that they do not use up an allied detachment slot?

Here is the current FoC factoring in all the supplements.

Note that even if you have the option to take a specific detachment, your levels of alliance may forbid you from selecting that detachment and fielding units from that army.

http://pinsofwar.com/expaned-warhammer-40k-force-organisation-chart/

Edit: Large size image
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img27/8601/v8w9.png

Okay this is what the Legion of the Damned has to say about itself.

From the book

The Legion of the Damned Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between the Legion of the Damned and the forces they may fight alongside.

That's the problem I am having because Imperial Knights is not on that book, but in the imperial knights book it says it can ally with LotD but it doesn't say they don't count as a primary detachment seperate from the force organization chart. It just says that IKcan be a primary detachment for that army or ally with that army.

Hollismason wrote:
Okay this is what the Legion of the Damned has to say about itself.

From the book

The Legion of the Damned Allies Matrix below lists the relationship between the Legion of the Damned and the forces they may fight alongside.

That's the problem I am having because Imperial Knights is not on that book, but in the imperial knights book it says it can ally with LotD but it doesn't say they don't count as a primary detachment seperate from the force organization chart. It just says that IKcan be a primary detachment for that army or ally with that army.

Well considering the Knight dex was not out at the time the Legion of the Damned dex came out it makes sense that the Knight dex was not on the Legion of the Damned list, but Legion of the Damned is on the Knight list.

Basically if you are taking a Knight primary, you have to look at the Knight matrix to see who it is allied with and pick allies and detachments from IQ and Legion of the Damned as per the Matrix in the Knights Dex as there is no entry in IQ or Legion of the Damned for Knights because the Knights Dex was not even around at the time.

Yeah but when referencing the LotD it doesn't allow the knights to do that, this is a RAW question. I know they probably RAI can but the only thing the Knights can do is either ALLY or act as a DETACHMENT too LotD

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah but when referencing the LotD it doesn't allow the knights to do that, this is a RAW question. I know they probably RAI can but the only thing the Knights can do is either ALLY or act as a DETACHMENT too LotD

No, as the Knights can be a primary detachment. you still get the full Force Org Chart for allied detachments fortifications etc. when using the Knights as a primary detachment.

The force organization chart in their book for them being a primary force does no include those options

Hollismason wrote:
The force organization chart in their book for them being a primary force does no include those options

The general Force Org chart does though.

@Hollismanson

Formations are what we got for XMAS, way after the BRB for 6th Edition. Logically there won't be anything in there about formations.

Even though the Imperial Knight codes was published after that, many others were not. The logical place for the rules about formations is in the formation publications. Go to http://www.blacklibrary.com/ and search for "Dataslate".

And yes, no matter how messy your army list is with primary, ally and a bunch of dataslate formations shoe-horned in, all of them need to be ok to fight alongside each other according to the ally matrix.

Hollismason wrote:
The force organization chart in their book for them being a primary force does no include those options

The section called "Imperial Knight Armies" in the Knight dex is what you need to read. This starts by saying "The following rules can be used to field armies where the primary detachment is made up of Imperial Knights." (Knight dex digital page 143.0)

This has all of the info you seek. Look under the "KNIGHT ARMIES" section, 3rd sentence starting with "Other detachments, such as..." The info is right there.