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This weekend my mates and I had a 2 vs 2 game, with one person playing the new Astra Militarum codex. Just to try them out, he brought two Wyvern tanks.
After reading and re-reading the rules, we managed to use the things, and looking down at the aftermath we all looked at eachother and agreed that this was a unit that was counter productive to having fun.

It was a whole exercise of counting several different polls at the same time, the straw that breaks the camel's back being the twin-linked rule.

Here's how we figured it, and correct me if we're way off.

Assuming you had one unit of three wyverns:

1) Roll for location of the first blast.
2a) decide that's a good spot and count hits.
2b) decide it's a bad spot and reroll, then count hits.
3) Roll in what direction from the first blast the second blast hits.
4a) decide that's a good spot and count hits.
4b) decide it's a bad spot and reroll, then count hits.
5) Do steps 3 - 4 until you have shot 12 shots.

This means you have to keep track of how many shots you have made - whether or not you just rerolled or rolled (which combined with the 12 times you're supposed to make creates a bit of a mess) and how many hits you have made, which we experienced could easily be several different numbers over several units.

edit: oh, and casualties need to be taken from the middle of each individual blast. come ON!

I can see these things ripping through Orks, but I wouldn't really feel like I wanted to take them. To be honest, if they weren't twin-linked they'd be a lot more fun. Not as reliable, but it would remove a huge chunk of the messiness.

Presumably the thing gets worse once you start to resolve all the wounds and saves.

You may have to use paper notes and/or hit counters to keep track. However, it does count against the principle that 40K is a simple game in its mechanics.

GW saw the Thudd Gun and decided that it needed an even bigger time eater of a unit. Thus the Wyvern was born.

Blimey, powerful but sounds seriously complex to understand yet alone field one.

In my group we simply house-rule that all casualties are taken from the center of the first blast.

If GW cannot write reasonable rules....feth 'em.

It is for precisely this that I will never run wyverns. Takes a ridiculous amount of time and effort to figure out what is going on.

So I take it 9 Wyverns is not going to be welcome in a tourney with a strictly enforced time limit?

 jonolikespie wrote:
So I take it 9 Wyverns is not going to be welcome in a tourney with a strictly enforced time limit?

Unless you come well prepared, no.

I actually figured that the easiest way to streamline it would be to have 12 blast templates. That way, you never have to keep track of your shots, you just keep them in a pile and go through them one by one. It's easy to know that when you pick up a new one, that's the first try for that shot, etc etc. The rule of having to resolve wounds from each individual blast is going to be a nightmare still though. I agree with the house rule of "all shots resoved from the first one" but it depends on how your tournament chooses to do it.

I don't really see how having 12 blast templates is going to help all that much, as most the time you can't really rest them on top of the hit models (I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate you trying!) and unless you have 12 hands it's going to be awkward to hold them all in their correct locations.

How about using dice, each time a blast is placed, figure out the number of hits and place a dice in that location showing the number of hits it got?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really see how having 12 blast templates is going to help all that much, as most the time you can't really rest them on top of the hit models (I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate you trying!) and unless you have 12 hands it's going to be awkward to hold them all in their correct locations.

How about using dice, each time a blast is placed, figure out the number of hits and place a dice in that location showing the number of hits it got?

Seems to be the most reasonable way of handling things that I've heard so far. Still, sounds like a nightmare. Nothing gets you immersed in a "beer and pretzels" game like spending 10 minutes working out the shooting results for ONE squadron of vehicles.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really see how having 12 blast templates is going to help all that much, as most the time you can't really rest them on top of the hit models (I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate you trying!) and unless you have 12 hands it's going to be awkward to hold them all in their correct locations.

How about using dice, each time a blast is placed, figure out the number of hits and place a dice in that location showing the number of hits it got?

Oh we did that.

The reason why you'd want 12 blast templates is not to hold them over the models. It's for part of the same reason that you might want 20 dice instead of 1 dice to roll 20 times. If you have only 1 dice you have to keep track of how many times you have rolled it. If you have 1 blast template you have to keep track of how many times you've used it.

If you have a pile of 12, you can discard each after using it once. When the pile is empty, you've used up all your shots. Gives you one less thing to keep track of.
Now you might say "but you could also place a pile of any type of counter and remove one for each shot." And yes, that's also a way to do it, but if you have the templates, it creates a logical break each time you replace the template with a new one. It makes it very easy to remember if you have or have not gone to the next shot yet.

And with the pebbles you might encounter the "wait, did I remove a pebble when I was done with a shot or before starting to resolve it?"
That won't happen with 12 templates, as you need the template in order to resolve the shots. It can only be replaced at a very specific time.

It's a usability thing. There are other ways of doing it, but this is the optimal way I can think of that creates the clearest logical break in your mind as you progress.

The problem isn't just "how many hits have I scored."
We have that in other places as well, where you have to add it all up.

The problem with the Wyvern is that on top of that you have to keep track of how many shots you have fired and if you have rerolled the last shot or not.
Doesn't sound too hard in theory, but when you are trying to burn through them and you go "ok, so that's 5 hits on unit A, 6 hits on unit B, 2 hits on unit C, I've fired 4 of the shots but I can still reroll the second one" there's a pretty good chance you'll hear "no, it was 6 on A and 5 on B, and you just rerolled the 5th shot."

It's not an easy mess to keep track of. Try it.

Took 6 min to resolve shoting from 1 model that hit , 2 units.

But the wyvern kit has its uses. if someone plays where FW is ok , he gets 3 models . A chimera , a saber weapon platform and a thudgun or counts as sm ally thunderfire cannon .

There is also the possibility that you are scoring hits on more then unit.

 Purifier wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really see how having 12 blast templates is going to help all that much, as most the time you can't really rest them on top of the hit models (I sure as hell wouldn't appreciate you trying!) and unless you have 12 hands it's going to be awkward to hold them all in their correct locations.

How about using dice, each time a blast is placed, figure out the number of hits and place a dice in that location showing the number of hits it got?

Oh we did that.

The reason why you'd want 12 blast templates is not to hold them over the models. It's for part of the same reason that you might want 20 dice instead of 1 dice to roll 20 times. If you have only 1 dice you have to keep track of how many times you have rolled it. If you have 1 blast template you have to keep track of how many times you've used it.

If you have a pile of 12, you can discard each after using it once. When the pile is empty, you've used up all your shots. Gives you one less thing to keep track of.
Now you might say "but you could also place a pile of any type of counter and remove one for each shot." And yes, that's also a way to do it, but if you have the templates, it creates a logical break each time you replace the template with a new one. It makes it very easy to remember if you have or have not gone to the next shot yet.

And with the pebbles you might encounter the "wait, did I remove a pebble when I was done with a shot or before starting to resolve it?"
That won't happen with 12 templates, as you need the template in order to resolve the shots. It can only be replaced at a very specific time.

It's a usability thing. There are other ways of doing it, but this is the optimal way I can think of that creates the clearest logical break in your mind as you progress.

The problem isn't just "how many hits have I scored."
We have that in other places as well, where you have to add it all up.

The problem with the Wyvern is that on top of that you have to keep track of how many shots you have fired and if you have rerolled the last shot or not.
Doesn't sound too hard in theory, but when you are trying to burn through them and you go "ok, so that's 5 hits on unit A, 6 hits on unit B, 2 hits on unit C, I've fired 4 of the shots but I can still reroll the second one" there's a pretty good chance you'll hear "no, it was 6 on A and 5 on B, and you just rerolled the 5th shot."

It's not an easy mess to keep track of. Try it.

I'd just take 12 dice and put them aside, each time a marker is placed, count its hits and then place a die there with the number of hits pointing up, if it doesn't score any hits just put it on "6" or something (hitting 6 models with a small blast is pretty hard, so any 6's = no hits).

When you run out of dice, you're done. Then just go through the dice that are sitting on the table showing the number of hits, point to one die with one hand, roll wounds/saves with the other hand, then remove the dice from the table.

That would be my process, but yeah, it's a pain in the arse any way you slice it. The barrage rules just aren't very streamlined, especially when you have so many shots and twin linking.

So that aside, how did the wyverns actually do in the game? I'm trying to decide if they are a good unit or not... though I probably won't buy any either way because playing with them is just too fiddly. I want my Colossus back

Because just giving them one rerollable large template would be too difficult, yes?

. Then just go through the dice that are sitting on the table showing the number of hits, point to one die with one hand, roll wounds/saves with the other hand, then remove the dice from the table.

It is barrage , your sniping so ,every roll is made separate and if you hit two units with the same template , the real fun begins. I only think god that it isn't possible to give precise shot to the wyvern.

So that aside, how did the wyverns actually do in the game?

It did bad for me . str 4 bounces off meq , does nothing to transports , has problems with wounding stuff like bikes or MC. It is ok at killing t3 stuff with +4 or higher save , as long as it doesn't stand on a +4inv fortification.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
When you run out of dice, you're done. Then just go through the dice that are sitting on the table showing the number of hits, point to one die with one hand, roll wounds/saves with the other hand, then remove the dice from the table.

That would be my process, but yeah, it's a pain in the arse any way you slice it. The barrage rules just aren't very streamlined, especially when you have so many shots and twin linking.

So that aside, how did the wyverns actually do in the game? I'm trying to decide if they are a good unit or not... though I probably won't buy any either way because playing with them is just too fiddly. I want my Colossus back

Like Makumba said, your method is going to start getting messy once you hit different units (which I can tell you that almost every single Wyvern barrage did. Some hitting 3 units.)
And again, these things don't sound too messy until you get deep into the 8th shot and you're starting to wonder if that die was lying around there before or if it was a part of your barrage etc etc.
It's a weapon that needs some way, no matter how you choose to do it that feels good to you, to keep track of a lot of things. Too many things.
The fact that it's twin linked doesn't bring anything to the table and a large plate thrice instead of small plates 12 times would hardly break the whole game.

They didn't impress, but I wouldn't say they were useless either. Their poor AP means my 10 strong Sisters units took a few hits, but could save off most of it.
They were placed so that I had no chance of attacking them though, so it was a case of fire being rained on the table every round and my side had to simply weather it.

I think they're pretty well balanced. If they were able to do what they do and just tear through armour they would be raining ridiculous death every round for zero risk.

I really like the wyvern on paper, but tabletop wise it sounds like a head ache. I would like the griffon back please.

Wish it was 65pts big blast barrage str 6 ap 4. simple and easy to use .

Maybe they should change the rule for twin linked blast weapons... substracting a fixed value from the scatter distance in addition to the BS Correction instead of rerolling... would spare some time.

Makumba wrote:
Wish it was 65pts big blast barrage str 6 ap 4. simple and easy to use .

That's what the Griffon was, 75pts, S6 AP4 Large Blast, reroll scatter.

The Wyvern is a great unit for 65 points. Same cost as a mortar squad, but gets four mortar shots, reroll to hit and wound.

But from a game design perspective, I really don't like all the additional rolling and template placing it requires. Slows the game and annoys me and my opponent. Better design IMO, just give it two large blast, and BS 4. So it gets a larger aoe but less accuracy than the reroll. Instead of reroll to wound make it S5. So much easier with 1/4th as much rolling and pretty much same effect.

Let's be honest, this isn't "the wyvern's" fault, it's terrible rules for multiple barrage.

It's not new either, a single thunderfire can be a pain in the but and it's rarely made to be twin-linked (the odd pschic buff or warlord trait may allow for that).


The problem a lot of people encounter is they think initially "oh this is easy, we'll just go template by template" but the real mind feth is t hat it's all simul and to make things even worse you have to factor closest to the center.

If the target is a pretty homogeneous unit (ork boys, kroot) it's not too big of a deal but it can still be daunting, it is so much worse having to deal with special weapons or look out sirs for characters ect.


I would suggest only allowing the initial shot to be twin-linked, every shot seems absurdly good. Even though it may slightly cut down on confusion, nothing changes the fact that's its hard enough with 4 normal small blasts, once you hit 12 you're just going to have people angrily pulling whole units off the board because the multiple barrage mechanic basically ends up as a legal form of slow play as many have pointed out.

If you want to make it easier just allocate wounds from the first blast.

Honestly though it is not that bad. Roll the first blast's located. Drop a dice there with a 1 on it in a different color from the rest. Roll the next blast see if you want the result, check it, drop a dice in a different color with a 1. Repeat.

I can usually resolve 3 prescienced thudd guns in about ~5 min or so depending on how careful we want to be. It takes practice though just like playing orks and moving your models does.

Are people that are saying it doesn't hit hard accounting for shred?

Gonna take this opportunity to smugly solicit the magic of playing 40K on the computer rather than with actual models.

Takes me about 2 seconds to click the "roll 12d6" button for the scatter dice +re-rolls, click the "roll 2d6" button for scatter distance if any of them do, then drag and drop the virtual templates to wherever I want them on the board.

feth yeah.

At least with the old Thudd Gun in 2nd edition, it had four interconnected blast templates, each with the scatter directions printed on it. Once you had decided where the four shots landed, they formed a chain, and then you rolled for everything under all of them at once as if you might with one huge template. I thought it was pretty damn cool in it's implementation.

The strangest part about having a weapon so cumbersome to use is that it's also so bad. You spend all that time rolling and rerolling scatter dice and rolling and rerolling wounds, and after all the dust has cleared, and after five minutes is blown... two or three space marines are dead.

The best I can tell to do with a 3x wyvern squad (other than not to field one), is to get yourself 12 scatter dice. Roll the first once, decide if you like it, then roll the other 11. Pick out all the hits and then reroll all the misses.

Then look and see if there are any arrows that point against each other, because if this is the case, where one points left and the other right, then that means that the one arrow moves it in the one direction, and the other arrow moves it back (more or less) onto the same spot where the template landed.

Using this method, you'd be able to hack out a good majority of the futziness. By picking out all the hits and half of the dice that point against each other, you can just multiply that result by the number of hits that the center blast template gets. Then you just need to resolve the handful of outliers.

Still not perfect, of course, because the best results will usually be not quite overlapping the first drop, but your sanity won't begrudge you a missing hit or two.

... especially since it's only Ap6, so they'll be making their armor saves anyways...

 Ailaros wrote:
...get yourself 12 scatter dice. Roll the first once, decide if you like it, then roll the other 11. Pick out all the hits and then reroll all the misses.

I heard this was what the Finnish ETC team actually did when testing wyverns for the first time.

 Ailaros wrote:
The strangest part about having a weapon so cumbersome to use is that it's also so bad. You spend all that time rolling and rerolling scatter dice and rolling and rerolling wounds, and after all the dust has cleared, and after five minutes is blown... two or three space marines are dead.

And other than the time factor, how is that bad again?



I'm sorry aileros, you really have to start making actual arguments or points. Like x is bad when compared to y, or x will never be as good for the points as y.

The wyvern would have to be bad at something specific, just using general subjective adjectives is meaningless.