Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello everybody, I was wondering if people think that Fateweaver's Staff re-roll permits an Allied Deathstrike Launcher to re-roll its launch roll? The Fateweaver rule says it permits 'you' to reroll a single D6 per turn. IMHO, that means 'me' the player gets to reroll a single D6, not just a D6 for Daemons stuff.

But just curious if there were other opinions on that? DEATHSTRIKE me with arguments

Only Battle Brothers can apply their rules to each other. AFAIK Daemons and Guard aren't BB.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only Battle Brothers can apply their rules to each other. AFAIK Daemons and Guard aren't BB.

This is not true, Nothing in the rules for allies prevent special rules from working on allies of convience (just almost all of them now specify what they work on)

Also Fateweaver reroll doesn't affect units, it affects the player so shouldn't care what is rerolled

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only Battle Brothers can apply their rules to each other. AFAIK Daemons and Guard aren't BB.

Page number, Book, evidence.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only Battle Brothers can apply their rules to each other. AFAIK Daemons and Guard aren't BB.

Page number, Book, evidence.

What I was referring to were these two bits:
Core Rulebook, Allies Section, Levels of Alliances page 112:

Battle Brothers:

...Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers abilities and so on....

Allies of Convenience:

...Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them....

Now the AoC doesn't say models can't be targeted by abilities, but if we allowed that to work then Desperate Allies could do it too as such I chalk that up to GW's poor word choice on AoC. And since they're basically enemy units, that really limits a lot of what you can do with them anyways.

And Daemons and Guard are AoC not Battle Brothers.

As for Fateweaver's roll, it is an ability that Fateweaver has that is targeting a roll that belongs to a model in another codex.

Now could GW intend for this to be okay? Maybe. Definitely worth an FAQ for what limits Fateweaver has, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that'd let him get a re-roll for an enemy unit honestly.

I might agree on intent, but RAW, the answer is yes, he allows a player to re-roll a D6, any D6 the player has rolled. Maybe GW will finally put out an FAQ for Daemons when they put the FAQs back online.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Only Battle Brothers can apply their rules to each other. AFAIK Daemons and Guard aren't BB.

Page number, Book, evidence.

What I was referring to were these two bits:
Core Rulebook, Allies Section, Levels of Alliances page 112:

Battle Brothers:

...Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers abilities and so on....

Allies of Convenience:

...Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them....

Now the AoC doesn't say models can't be targeted by abilities, but if we allowed that to work then Desperate Allies could do it too as such I chalk that up to GW's poor word choice on AoC. And since they're basically enemy units, that really limits a lot of what you can do with them anyways.

And Daemons and Guard are AoC not Battle Brothers.

As for Fateweaver's roll, it is an ability that Fateweaver has that is targeting a roll that belongs to a model in another codex.

Now could GW intend for this to be okay? Maybe. Definitely worth an FAQ for what limits Fateweaver has, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that'd let him get a re-roll for an enemy unit honestly.

Woah woah woah, that is your personal interpretation, keep it from YMDC.
From the codex

The staff allows you to re-roll a single d6 once per turn

No where does it say that this dice can't be from an allied detachment.
From the BRB

In some situations, the rules allow you to pick up and re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like - pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

You rolled the dice, you can re-roll it. And the roll does not "belong to another codex". Please cite your assumption where dice rolls belong to codecis.


No where does it say that you cannot target an allied detachment with an ability like Fateweaver's. It specifies psychic powers, shooting, and charging, but nothing else. Only in FaQ's does it specify other things, such as the old Officer of the fleet that couldn't affect other codecis. But that was a specific exception.

There are specific rules that allow you to re-roll the dice. Staff of tomorrow, and the re-roll section from the BRB. Nowhere is this action forbidden

No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

I can easily see your claim, but I don't feel you honestly have much more supporting it than I do. And we can argue this until we're blue in the face but it's not going to change the fact that the ability needs an FAQ in general just to kill questions like this in the future.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

I can easily see your claim, but I don't feel you honestly have much more supporting it than I do. And we can argue this until we're blue in the face but it's not going to change the fact that the ability needs an FAQ in general just to kill questions like this in the future.

I disagree. Again there are a specific set of rules allowing you to make this re-roll. Why would you need another permissive rule? The rules are already there allowing it

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

Fateweaver's ability doesn't target anything.
It just let's you re-roll the die.
It doesn't give any particular unit the ability to re-roll.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

Fateweaver's ability doesn't target anything.
It just let's you re-roll the die.
It doesn't give any particular unit the ability to re-roll.

I don't agree because almost every die to tied to something that is being done by a unit, one way or the other. His ability gives a re-roll but without GW coming out and going "Oh yeah, you can totally use it on allies" I don't see the permission there to re-roll a die tied to something being done by an enemy unit (which is what AoC count as). It'd be like using Fateweaver to re-roll one of your opponent's dice.

It works fine. If you have nothing more valuable to use the re-roll on for that turn, then go for it.

The re-roll is a non-targetable, non-psychic power. The rules other posters have mentioned thus far have no relevance to fateweaver's re-roll.
As far as I am aware, there is nothing limiting its usage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

Fateweaver's ability doesn't target anything.
It just let's you re-roll the die.
It doesn't give any particular unit the ability to re-roll.

I don't agree because almost every die to tied to something that is being done by a unit, one way or the other. His ability gives a re-roll but without GW coming out and going "Oh yeah, you can totally use it on allies" I don't see the permission there to re-roll a die tied to something being done by an enemy unit (which is what AoC count as). It'd be like using Fateweaver to re-roll one of your opponent's dice.

You have permission to reroll a die roll you make. Show any kind of restriction on it.

Rerolling your opponent's roll has be debunked many times.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

Fateweaver's ability doesn't target anything.
It just let's you re-roll the die.
It doesn't give any particular unit the ability to re-roll.

I don't agree because almost every die to tied to something that is being done by a unit, one way or the other. His ability gives a re-roll but without GW coming out and going "Oh yeah, you can totally use it on allies" I don't see the permission there to re-roll a die tied to something being done by an enemy unit (which is what AoC count as).

The restriction on abilities is linked to targeting AoC units.
Please cite where Fateweaver's ability targets a unit at all.

It'd be like using Fateweaver to re-roll one of your opponent's dice.

Not even close.

Fragile wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No where does it say you can target AoC with an ability like Fateweaver's either. Or are we forgetting the fact that permissive rulesets need to give permission for things to work not the other way around?

Fateweaver's ability doesn't target anything.
It just let's you re-roll the die.
It doesn't give any particular unit the ability to re-roll.

I don't agree because almost every die to tied to something that is being done by a unit, one way or the other. His ability gives a re-roll but without GW coming out and going "Oh yeah, you can totally use it on allies" I don't see the permission there to re-roll a die tied to something being done by an enemy unit (which is what AoC count as). It'd be like using Fateweaver to re-roll one of your opponent's dice.

You have permission to reroll a die roll you make. Show any kind of restriction on it.

Rerolling your opponent's roll has be debunked many times.

I never said you could re-roll the opponent's die. The point was that re-rolling a die that is tied to an enemy unit, to me, and how I'm reading the RAW (because with out GW writes even when RAW is taken verbatim there is still interpretation of what you're reading and anyone who wants to argue that there is a way to read things without interpreting is getting laughed at) it doesn't work. You're reading RAW differently and I'm willing to agree to disagree for the sake of not starting a measuring contest on the internet.

GW is apparently working on updating some FAQs and the Daemon FAQ hasn't popped back up yet so this might be the best time to ask to get it cleared up so this topic doesn't have to keep cropping up everytime a new codex comes out and people see something they want to re-roll in it.

That reroll is not tied to an enemy unit though. It is simply not your roll to reroll.

Fragile wrote:
That reroll is not tied to an enemy unit though. It is simply not your roll to reroll.

AoC count as enemy units that you can't intentionally target, hence my use of the term "enemy units".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Fragile wrote:
That reroll is not tied to an enemy unit though. It is simply not your roll to reroll.

AoC count as enemy units that you can't intentionally target, hence my use of the term "enemy units".

Does Fateweaver's ability target anything?

I believe there is a FAQ preventing rerolling the 'does the game end' roll (presumably because it doesn't specify who rolls the dice) but anything else goes.

Any time you as a player roll a D6 you can reroll it. There is a big difference from rolling for an enemy unit (roll saves for AoC) and rolling for your opponent (e.g. Ill just roll those saves for you for your terminators there hee hee)

also remember that fateweaver allows a reroll per player turn so that's once when you get to go then again when opponent gets to go.