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Hello everyone!

As I continue to wade through the game that is Warmachine, I'm trying to figure out different tactics and list to use with Menoth.

I do like the many variations of Exemplars that work well with Kreoss (my 'elite' list), but I'm interested in two other types of list. One 'jack heavy list, though I'm not sure who the best 'Jack caster for Menoth is. So that would be my first question.


The second question deals with the High Reclaimer (or possibly the Testament of Menoth, but I have no idea what he does). I'm thinking of running a horde list using some Zealots and a monolith bearer, the Covenant, and a few other reclaimers. I'm just wanting confirmation that zealots work well with the High Reclaimer, and I'm also wanting to know what 'jacks work well with him. I'm thinking the castigator (because flame fists) but I may need a good anti-jack weapon.

What are your thoughts?

Are you new to Warmachine? If so, I would not recommend the High Reclaimer at all as he is tricky to use and has such a low focus stat, translating into a small control area and taking units of cheap infantry can work against him. I suggest that you do another caster pSeverius or eFeora.

However, it seems you are rather well-versed. So here is some things I see...

For Jacks, you really want ones that are focus efficient, like the Reckoner and the Vanquisher. Revenger if you want to sling ashes to ashes about. Even then, stick to just a few jacks to make sure your control area is not cluttered. Due to oath of slience, you really want a commander model, such as Vilmon or the Exemplar Sechenshal. For army composition, you want a balance of Cheap, single wound infantry and multi-wound infantry that hit hard and take a hit (like Bastions) that you can bring back on feat turn.

This is theorymachining for me, so I could be proven wrong from someone who has experience and might be better informed about The High Reclaimer than I.

I am an experienced noob. I used to be pretty heavy into the game around 2008, then I sold off all my stuff and haven't played since.

I like the Vilmon idea. How well would he+2 paladins work as my more 'elite' style infantry? They can be hard to move when in wall stance.

I was thinking the vanquished may be a good bet. I like the revenges idea also. They may be the two I run wi for his list,

godswildcard wrote:
I am an experienced noob. I used to be pretty heavy into the game around 2008, then I sold off all my stuff and haven't played since.

I like the Vilmon idea. How well would he+2 paladins work as my more 'elite' style infantry? They can be hard to move when in wall stance.

I was thinking the vanquished may be a good bet. I like the revenges idea also. They may be the two I run wi for his list,

Vilmon and the Paladins are solos, so they cannot be brought back by his feat. Keep this in mind, as you want to keep them around and protect them. More Elite Infantry is your Knights Exemplar, Exemplar Bastions and Cinerators, and maybe Idrian Skirmishers (but that should not be considered at the current time). Vanquishers are a solid jack, as it gives you a shooting attack with a AOE that puts continuous fire on models, and can be great against stealth units. I say try to avoid the revenger and spell -slinging with The High Reclaimer, as it is hard to pull off since his low Focus stat makes it hard to hit anything (let alone ashes to ashes being a very expensive spell).


Also, one major thing is that there is a new ruleset for Warmachine, called MKii in case you have not played it yet.

I picked up the Mark II rules, so I'm good in that area. I was hoping to keep the Exemplars in all of their flavors isolated in Kreoss' list. Why would Idrian Skirmishers be necessary to skip?

So maybe a Vanquisher and a Templar? Just to give me a bit of an anvil. I had even considered the Avatar, but maybe that's just silly.

Idrian Skirmishers are horribly overpriced unfortunately. Its not that they're bad, its that they're not worth the horrendous point cost. If they were the same cost as Errants they'd see a lot more play.

As a Menoth player, my lists tend to have a lot of model overlap. Most of my lists have 2 of the 3 main infantry units for Protectorate(Zealots, TFG, and Errants)

I also tend to have Jack overlap. The best advice with Jacks is to get at least one of each kit and magnetize them so you can run any of the jacks.

The Avatar is good in any list.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Idrian Skirmishers are horribly overpriced unfortunately. Its not that they're bad, its that they're not worth the horrendous point cost. If they were the same cost as Errants they'd see a lot more play.

As a Menoth player, my lists tend to have a lot of model overlap. Most of my lists have 2 of the 3 main infantry units for Protectorate(Zealots, TFG, and Errants)

I also tend to have Jack overlap. The best advice with Jacks is to get at least one of each kit and magnetize them so you can run any of the jacks.

The Avatar is good in any list.

Idrians are expensive sure and over-costed with casters who don't support them. However I think "Horribly Overpriced" is going a bit far. In terms of offensive options they've got best overall power and projection combination we have access to. In addition they've got a high body count and can be surprisingly resilient to shooting.

The High Reclaimer is probably the caster who works with them the best, especially given the amount of shenanigans you can pull if you can cycle their prey target on his feat turn. I'll admit they're probably pretty low on the buying priority since they're a bit of niche tool. However it feels like these posts are just making them out to be a poor use of points, which isn't true. It's not like they're cinerators or deliverers or something.

In NQ 48 there is a theme list involving reclaimer which raises the FA of wall paladins for each heavy jack taken. This is interesting because Paladins are the most point effective to their great abilities in attacking and road blocking.

Alright, firstly, jack casters.

Keeping in mind that most of our lists would be considered "Jack Heavy" by most of the other factions, as we do have a lot of options for running them, especially once you include the Avatar. Seeing 3 Heavies (including Avatar) and a light is actually quite a few jacks, but nearly all our casters can run them happily. Now, if you want to go even Jack Heavier, well, we have 3 good options - Harbinger's theme force, Amon Ad-Raza and eFeora.

Harbinger's theme force requires Vilmon, 3 normal heavies plus Avatar, and gives a -1 pt to all melee heavy jacks (Including Avatar) at tier 4. This means 5pt crusaders and 7pt Templars. At 5pts a pop, it's easy to put a wall of heavy jacks into your list, and really skew armour, and her Crusaders Call spell and 10 focus do actually make that many Crusaders a reasonable option - it's not a massive power list, but it can do well enough. Templars are more expensive, but skew armour even further, and it's possible to have an entire list of models that are at ARM 21 if you want. That said, the list really relies on spamming those models, so it's not for everyone.

Amon Ad-Raza - ah, here's the guy who's meant to be our ACTUAL jack caster. He has two really great battle group wide spells, Mobility (+2Spd and pathfinder to the battle group) and Synergy (Each model gets +1 to hit and damage for each other jack in the battle group that has hit an enemy this turn). He can be run with a large number of jacks, relying on his spells to really make them count, even though he doesn't have much focus to hand out. Light jack swarms can be interesting with him, as after 4-5 jacks have hit, your lights are hitting better than most heavies in the game, and models like the Dervish begin to shine. Here's the problem however - Amon himself is really really easy to kill. He needs to be near the front lines, his feat (and all his jacks) encourages him to spend all his focus and not camp any, and he has no defensive tech beyond essentially ignoring knock-downs. That all adds up to a caster who dies, easily and a lot while trying to grind out a win. Amon can be fun, but he's one of our most challenging casters to actually run well, and is generally considered probably our worst caster for that.

eFeora - one of our best casters, and a very strong contender. While she generally takes mixed lists, with her Escort spell she can speed up jacks a fair bit, she can handle a fairly large battle group quite easily. While she doesn't have that much focus, her great defensive stats means she can be a little more liberal in handing them out, and her feat can help feed her jacks with focus as well. You can easily put 3 heavies on her, or bond a Judicator and throw in 3 more jacks.



Now, for the High Reclaimer.

He's good, not over the top but a solid caster that's seen reasonably regularly as a 2nd or 3rd caster in tournaments. He has a bit of a learning curve to use, and he has some really really bad match ups (never take him against legion... just no), but he also has some very good matchups and can facilitate some very unexpected assassinations, and has a play style that's pretty unique in Menoth.

I could go into a lot of detail about his play style, useful techniques and whatnot, but instead I'm going to send you over to the High Reclaimer Chronicles by Gaston on the PP forums. It's long, but it is one of the best single caster resources I've ever found, and contains a lot of brilliant ideas and insights for running silent bob, if you have the time to read through it (or just skip to some of the later pages). Learning to use his rolling cloud wall and his feat to full effectiveness are the most important things to start with.

Now, for jacks that go with him. Firstly, not the Castigator. The Castigtor... is sadly a bit of a let down, especially when compared to the Reckoner or Vanquisher. The Reckoner brings Reach, higher POW, a gun with a Def Debuff, and mobile ashen veil, the Vanquisher can put out two huge flaming blasts a turn that clear infantry far better than the Castigator. The Castigator can't charge and use it's Combustion *Attack (meaning it has a very low threat range for infantry clearing), has low POW for a heavy that means it's not great at cracking high ARM, an hasn't got a great threat projection like our gun jacks have.

For the High Relcaimer, I'd suggest either the Reckoner or the Vanquisher. The Reckoner is a great jack, but it has real synergy with the High Relaimer, as it's to-hit debuff (ashen veil) stacks with the High Relcaimers ash-cloud debuff. Together they mean living models affected by both have -4 to hit, which is a huge swing for many models. Sadly, undead models and jacks/constructs are unaffected, but it can still be huge against some opponents. The Vanquisher is good for the High Reclaimer as it needs very little focus - usually only one per turn - and the HR often needs to keep all he can anyway.

Beyond a Reckoner or Vanq, there are a lot of different options for him, but I might suggest thinking about the Avatar, especially if you have Visigoth Rhoven and Co. Use Rhoven to give the Avatar Menoth's Sight (so the avatar can see through clouds), and have the Avatar use his gaze behind the clouds, which will now work through the clouds, meaning enemies can't run away, but also can't see the Avatar to shoot/charge him. It's a fun little trick against some opponents.

As for his infantry, Zealots will do well with him. They're cheap souls to collect, and their invincibility mini-feat gels really well with the cloud-wall - they're protected while they walk up, then can pounce with their mini-feat when everything starts, or they can use their mini-feat to disengage and throw bombs if the enemy runs a tarpit into them through the clouds.

Exemplar Errants don't work so well for him however, as their self-sacrifice ability does mess with his soul collecting a bit, but they can still be useful with him.

As for Idrian Skirmishers, they're generally considered fairly expensive for what they do, but they actually work with him really quite well. With his feat, he can place them far forward, and if they've used their Prey ability on the enemy caster, can generally rip him to shreds pretty easily - POW 13/Rat 8 guns that can CRA if needed, followed by a very powerful charge (thanks to Assault and Battery) usually ends casters, especially as the feat can often get them into a casters back arc for the back-strike bonus. That said, if you're just starting out again, I probably wouldn't get them just for HR, unless you already have enough other more common units.

 sing your life wrote:
In NQ 48 there is a theme list involving reclaimer which raises the FA of wall paladins for each heavy jack taken. This is interesting because Paladins are the most point effective to their great abilities in attacking and road blocking.

I believe that was a theme force for the Testament of Menoth actually, but yeah, it looked pretty fun.

I'll just say it's a darn shame that High Reclaimer is apparently such a difficult caster to play correctly. If I hadn't found out about CoC I would totally have launched into Menoth and Reclaimer just on the benefit of the story at the start of the Prime rulebook... I'm guessing that was a subtle move to get you interested in Cygnar, but it totally backfired for me.

Anybody who almost kicks "mr pretty boy" Stryker's teeth in can't be too bad in the grand scheme of things.

 dementedwombat wrote:


Anybody who almost kicks "mr pretty boy" Stryker's teeth in can't be too bad in the grand scheme of things.

Stryker looked to be winning before he ran away.

I would choose Pserverous for best jack caster followed by harbinger and pferoa.

Eye of menoth Bubble and choir for +3 to hit and dmg combined.

You can take Avatar, the new Jouneyman, Wracks, Heirphant.

Avatar 1-4 auto focus a turn.
Sevvy 8
Jouneyman 4
1 per turn from Wracks
-1 cost per turn from Heirphant.

Gives you many options for many jacks with good hit and damage buffs.

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


Anybody who almost kicks "mr pretty boy" Stryker's teeth in can't be too bad in the grand scheme of things.

Stryker looked to be winning before he ran away.

Yeah, well, the fluff writers are obviously biased I just remember that story making me think Stryker was kind of annoying because he was obviously the one you're supposed to like, and the reclaimer actually sounded like a really cool character.

 dementedwombat wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


Anybody who almost kicks "mr pretty boy" Stryker's teeth in can't be too bad in the grand scheme of things.

Stryker looked to be winning before he ran away.

Yeah, well, the fluff writers are obviously biased I just remember that story making me think Stryker was kind of annoying because he was obviously the one you're supposed to like, and the reclaimer actually sounded like a really cool character.

I think it's the fact he survived an explosion that killed his army, and by himself forced the two Cygnarian warcasters to retreat, as they knew he'd be unstoppable after that. Then again, he also literally charged into hell itself and fought his way back out to become the Testament of Menoth - he's basically on par with the butcher for pure baddassness.

 Maddermax wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


Anybody who almost kicks "mr pretty boy" Stryker's teeth in can't be too bad in the grand scheme of things.

Stryker looked to be winning before he ran away.

Yeah, well, the fluff writers are obviously biased I just remember that story making me think Stryker was kind of annoying because he was obviously the one you're supposed to like, and the reclaimer actually sounded like a really cool character.

I think it's the fact he survived an explosion that killed his army, and by himself forced the two Cygnarian warcasters to retreat, as they knew he'd be unstoppable after that. Then again, he also literally charged into hell itself and fought his way back out to become the Testament of Menoth - he's basically on par with the butcher for pure baddassness.

The quite character in all of the Iron Kingdoms of course has a to a badass to a certain degree,

All of those things are reasons I like the silent man!

Actually that NQ theme force was for testament, not reclaimer.but is some interesting list.

As for Idrian Skirmishers, they're generally considered fairly expensive for what they do, but they actually work with him really quite well. With his feat, he can place them far forward, and if they've used their Prey ability on the enemy caster, can generally rip him to shreds pretty easily - POW 13/Rat 8 guns that can CRA if needed, followed by a very powerful charge (thanks to Assault and Battery) usually ends casters, especially as the feat can often get them into a casters back arc for the back-strike bonus. That said, if you're just starting out again, I probably wouldn't get them just for HR, unless you already have enough other more common units.

Are you getting your feats confused, or am I missing something? I mean, theoretically you could place the returned models in the enemy warnoun's back arc, but that would put him awfully close himself.

Edit: ok, thinking about it some more, I suppose that is what you meant, I'm just not sure about the general feasibility of it given the small control range.

At any rate, I'm a big fan of any character who goes to hell and back just to find something to read. ToM/silent bob is my favorite character in the game, hands down. With that said, I generally prefer the Testament. With THR, I would definitely take the Avatar. I also personally prefer Vanquishers with him. I've heard good things about using him with deliverers in the backfield. Zealots go very well with him. I also really like the Bastions with him.

I think the lack of commander with him is really blown out of proportion. PoM has pretty high leadership across the board; using points for a character that gives +1 on LD checks seems wasteful to me. I haven't found it to be an issue (though it's been a while since I played Menoth).

 spyguyyoda wrote:

As for Idrian Skirmishers, they're generally considered fairly expensive for what they do, but they actually work with him really quite well. With his feat, he can place them far forward, and if they've used their Prey ability on the enemy caster, can generally rip him to shreds pretty easily - POW 13/Rat 8 guns that can CRA if needed, followed by a very powerful charge (thanks to Assault and Battery) usually ends casters, especially as the feat can often get them into a casters back arc for the back-strike bonus. That said, if you're just starting out again, I probably wouldn't get them just for HR, unless you already have enough other more common units.

Are you getting your feats confused, or am I missing something? I mean, theoretically you could place the returned models in the enemy warnoun's back arc, but that would put him awfully close himself.

Edit: ok, thinking about it some more, I suppose that is what you meant, I'm just not sure about the general feasibility of it given the small control range.

Charge 8" (charge your own guy if necessary) plus feat 10" means that if your opponent starts ~16.5" away (to fit in the base size" behind them), you can do it, and starting at that range isn't that unlikely against many casters, though it obviously won't happen against back-line casters. It does mean if you fail the assassination, you're likely dead yourself, but hey who dares wins, right?

The trickier thing is getting the CMD range for the Idrians, and for that you really need to have the Chief killed off. When you feat, you can resurrect the chief 8" forward from the current leader, then resurrect further members up to 9" forward from him (as he becomes the unit commander). That generally gives you the range you need.