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Can the Storm Lord fire off his lightning strikes when he is not on the table? This came up in a game of Carnage today, and 3 of the 4 players felt it was total BS, but we didn't feel like arguing it (obviously the Necron player was the 1 that thought it was perfectly within the rules). I always thought that a special ability that was a form of attack could not be used if the model that has that special ability was not on the table. I mean the Lord of Storms ability is obnoxious enough, and is very poorly written (it combines two very different rules into a single blob of text), but then, the same could be said for a lot of the Necron codex. If the ability is completely independent of Imhotek's presence on the battlefield, why then would he get to use a reroll to from an accompanying cryptek for lightning strikes and to determine if nightfighting is in effect? Kind of contradicts itself if that's the case.

On the subject of Necron rule shenanigans, our resident Necron player completely disagrees with the Sweeping Advance kill equals no Everliving roll. This has led to a number of arguments, and now, I just don't use a melee army against him anymore. In our same game above, he broke from combat voluntarily in the hopes that he would be able to A) make his Everliving roll to stand back up, and B) move the model closer to the objective and NOT be tied up in combat. Again, the rest of the players in the Carnage match called him on that being illegal, and he claimed that he did not have to put the model back into combat because the unit was wiped out, the winning unit consolidated, and so combat was officially over. He could then charge another unit during his turn. Any thoughts on this one (and yes, I know SA should stop the EL roll to begin with, but I'm done arguing that one for now)?

I seriously cannot wait until GW redoes the Necron codex. There are just too many wonky special rules that seem to break every basic rule there is and I'm just tired of arguing with the guy.

I'm not about to comment on part one, but there are numerous problems in part 2.

"he broke from combat voluntarily ... " That's not an option. You cannot choose to fail the morale check.

"he claimed he did not have to put the model back into combat ..." Possibly illegal. Per the Necron Codex "If the model was locked in Close Combat when it 'died', and the combat is ongoing, then it must immediately pile in." If he withdrew and was swept, then he would be able to do what he did. But then he runs afoul of the wording of Sweeping Advance "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this point; for them the battle is over."

Sweeping Advance kill do allow Everliving rolls.
As in the big book , the unit is “removed as casualties”.
Everliving roll is used for a model removed as casualty.

ian_destiny wrote:
Sweeping Advance kill do allow Everliving rolls.
As in the big book , the unit is “removed as casualties”.
Everliving roll is used for a model removed as casualty.

Wrong. Was the unit saved? Is the battle not over for that unit? Then you have broken the rule for sweeping advance, and done it with a special rule that does NOT specify it operates against sweeping advance.

SA denies ever living. No argument is possible when the rules are read entirely, and without misunderstanding the word "specifically"

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ian_destiny wrote:
Sweeping Advance kill do allow Everliving rolls.
As in the big book , the unit is “removed as casualties”.
Everliving roll is used for a model removed as casualty.

Wrong. Was the unit saved? Is the battle not over for that unit? Then you have broken the rule for sweeping advance, and done it with a special rule that does NOT specify it operates against sweeping advance.

SA denies ever living. No argument is possible when the rules are read entirely, and without misunderstanding the word "specifically"

Codex 》Rule book.

Everliving is the "otherwise specified" thing in this case. So, Everliving roll of 5+ will save the Necron character.

ian_destiny wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ian_destiny wrote:
Sweeping Advance kill do allow Everliving rolls.
As in the big book , the unit is “removed as casualties”.
Everliving roll is used for a model removed as casualty.

Wrong. Was the unit saved? Is the battle not over for that unit? Then you have broken the rule for sweeping advance, and done it with a special rule that does NOT specify it operates against sweeping advance.

SA denies ever living. No argument is possible when the rules are read entirely, and without misunderstanding the word "specifically"

Codex 》Rule book.

Everliving is the "otherwise specified" thing in this case. So, Everliving roll of 5+ will save the Necron character.

The Codex rule never mentions Sweeping Advance, so how does it specify? There's nothing in the rule to suggest it overrides the sweeping restriction.

 grendel083 wrote:

ian_destiny wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ian_destiny wrote:
Sweeping Advance kill do allow Everliving rolls.
As in the big book , the unit is “removed as casualties”.
Everliving roll is used for a model removed as casualty.

Wrong. Was the unit saved? Is the battle not over for that unit? Then you have broken the rule for sweeping advance, and done it with a special rule that does NOT specify it operates against sweeping advance.

SA denies ever living. No argument is possible when the rules are read entirely, and without misunderstanding the word "specifically"

Codex 》Rule book.

Everliving is the "otherwise specified" thing in this case. So, Everliving roll of 5+ will save the Necron character.

The Codex rule never mentions Sweeping Advance, so how does it specify? There's nothing in the rule to suggest it overrides the sweeping restriction.

Sweeping Advance , on page 27 of the BRB : "The destoryed unit is immediately removed as casualties."
And on page 29 of the necron book, Ever-living : " If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty,....."

ya the FAQ made things weird for imotekh, but that said.

His rule modifies the night fighting rules, it's not his rule. Just like if you take an elite choice as a troop choice, they can use mysterious objectives as troops, even if the HQ is not on the table yet.

Or how Ghazghull modifies the WAAAAGH rules, it's not his rule, so G's WAAAGH can be used if Ghaz is in reserves, or dead.

The LOTS ability works if imotekh is on the table, or in reserves, and if he's dead, as long as nightfighting is in play. but if he's dead the cryptek can no longer allow a reroll.

When you read the reserves rules, they don't restrict anything models are capable of doing, which is why SR's that modify reserve rolls also work while that unit is in reserve.

Nice selective quoting!

In general, upon death, necrons get reanimation protocols.
A unit caught by sweeping advance is destroyed.

As stated in the sweeping advance rule, unless specifically referencing this situation no special rule can be used to prevent this. That means a cheat death rule isn't enough, it has to be specifically a cheat death including sweeping advance special rule.
Since reanimation protocols does not meet that criteria, the necrons do not get to use that rule against sweeping advance.

ian_destiny wrote:
Sweeping Advance , on page 27 of the BRB : "The destoryed unit is immediately removed as casualties."

And what does the very next sentence say?

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over.

Yeah, Ever-living does not protect against SA. It's a special rule that did not specify that it can ignore SA.

Everliving allows you to roll for IWBB even when the unit has been killed in Sweeping Advance.

Everliving is NOT an upgrade to the IWBB rule. It's one of the most common misundestandings. Everliving is a completely seperate rule. IWBB specifically states that it does not save you from Sweeping Advance / Fall Back and explicitely states that all counters are lost.

This is NOT the case for Everliving, quite in the contrary, as it specifically refers to the model with the Everliving rule being part of a unit. The rule for Everliving specifically states that the unit MUST come back to life.

And on top of that, both IWBB and Everliving are indeed more specific than the BRB rule and therefore take precedence. In the case of IWBB, however, the rule explicitely states that the models or rather their markers are immediately lost upon being swept.

On the battlefield, this never comes up anyway. When sweeping a unit with an Everliving model, you get to reposition your unit. Simply reposition them in a way so that the Everliving model cannot be placed 3'' around its marker. If it cannot be placed, it cannot resurrect and counts as being a casualty.

 Sigvatr wrote:
And on top of that, both IWBB and Everliving are indeed more specific than the BRB rule and therefore take precedence. In the case of IWBB, however, the rule explicitely states that the models or rather their markers are immediately lost upon being swept.

Does EL specifically state that it can save the unit from Sweeping Advance?
No? Then why are you breaking that rule?

On the battlefield, this never comes up anyway. When sweeping a unit with an Everliving model, you get to reposition your unit. Simply reposition them in a way so that the Everliving model cannot be placed 3'' around its marker. If it cannot be placed, it cannot resurrect and counts as being a casualty.

Yeah, because rolling a 1 to consolidate never happens.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
And on top of that, both IWBB and Everliving are indeed more specific than the BRB rule and therefore take precedence. In the case of IWBB, however, the rule explicitely states that the models or rather their markers are immediately lost upon being swept.

Does EL specifically state that it can save the unit from Sweeping Advance?
No? Then why are you breaking that rule?

Feel free to ask Ward about why he decided to implement a rule that foregoes Sweeping Advance. I can only do so much as work with the rules, not comment on the reason for its implemention.

 Sigvatr wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
And on top of that, both IWBB and Everliving are indeed more specific than the BRB rule and therefore take precedence. In the case of IWBB, however, the rule explicitely states that the models or rather their markers are immediately lost upon being swept.

Does EL specifically state that it can save the unit from Sweeping Advance?
No? Then why are you breaking that rule?

Feel free to ask Ward about why he decided to implement a rule that foregoes Sweeping Advance. I can only do so much as work with the rules, not comment on the reason for its implemention.

You've misunderstood.
Sweeping advances requires a Special Rule that saves a unit to specifically say that it can.
EL does not specifically say that it can.
Why are you ignoring what Sweeping Advance says?

Sweeping Advance states that the model is removed as a casualty. EL specifically refers to this event and is triggered by it. So is IWBB, but it specifically states that Sweeping Advance removes all counters.

/e: Just to clarify for others: this still doesn't allow the rest of the unit to roll for IWBB, despite the character with Everliving having been part of the unit. The unit is dead, the character lives.

Sweeping advance then states that nothing can save it unless specified otherwise. You're missing that clause.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sweeping advance then states that nothing can save it unless specified otherwise. You're missing that clause.

I did not miss it, in the contrary. Nothing can save the model indeed, it is counted as a casualty. Everliving ticks in after that. Furthermore, Everliving is more specific than the BRB in that matter, as detailed above.

Sweeping Advance -> Counted as casualty -> Everliving

Which means that you saved the model, thus ignoring the wording for Sweeping Advance without a specific rule stating you may do so.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sweeping advance then states that nothing can save it unless specified otherwise. You're missing that clause.

I did not miss it, in the contrary. Nothing can save the model indeed, it is counted as a casualty. Everliving ticks in after that. Furthermore, Everliving is more specific than the BRB in that matter, as detailed above.

Sweeping Advance -> Counted as casualty -> Everliving

So for them, the battle isn't over?

Ignoring rules = cheating. You're ignoring a rule stating, plainly, that the unit takes no further part in the game UNLESS the rule SPECIFICALLY STATES it works against sweeping advance

You have no such rule, therefore, as stated and proven every damn time, el cannot operate against sweeping advance.

Oh, and as for your fallacious timing argument - EL happens end of phase. WBB happened the turn after. At the earliest. The wording for SA has not altered, yet WBB was the canonical example of a rule that did not operate, meaning your timing argument is voided. Do not repeat it

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Oh, and as for your fallacious timing argument - EL happens end of phase. WBB happened the turn after. At the earliest. The wording for SA has not altered, yet WBB was the canonical example of a rule that did not operate, meaning your timing argument is voided. Do not repeat it

This was the case pre-6th. 6th now explicitely states that models killed by Sweeping Advance are removed as casualties. Even basic rules, or rather their wording, change with the course of time, so keep up with it. Using outdated rules knowledge in YMDC is meh-meh.

Denying EL after a Sweeping Advance is plain cheating your fellow Necron opponent, nosferatu.

/e: Quoted directly from the BRB:

"Unless otherwise specified, no save [...]"

Necron codex, p 29.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Oh, and as for your fallacious timing argument - EL happens end of phase. WBB happened the turn after. At the earliest. The wording for SA has not altered, yet WBB was the canonical example of a rule that did not operate, meaning your timing argument is voided. Do not repeat it

This was the case pre-6th. 6th now explicitely states that models killed by Sweeping Advance are removed as casualties. Even basic rules, or rather their wording, change with the course of time, so keep up with it. Using outdated rules knowledge in YMDC is meh-meh.

Denying EL after a Sweeping Advance is plain cheating your fellow Necron opponent, nosferatu.

"or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over."

That is the rule. Are you following that rule?

Or are you using "other special rule": Ever-living?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


Oh, and as for your fallacious timing argument - EL happens end of phase. WBB happened the turn after. At the earliest. The wording for SA has not altered, yet WBB was the canonical example of a rule that did not operate, meaning your timing argument is voided. Do not repeat it

This was the case pre-6th. 6th now explicitely states that models killed by Sweeping Advance are removed as casualties. Even basic rules, or rather their wording, change with the course of time, so keep up with it. Using outdated rules knowledge in YMDC is meh-meh.

Denying EL after a Sweeping Advance is plain cheating your fellow Necron opponent, nosferatu.

"or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage, for them the battle is over."

That is the rule. Are you following that rule?

Or are you using "other special rule": Ever-living?

Yes, because:

"Unless otherwise specified, no save [...]"

No you're not, because the rules for Everliving never once specifies that you can take it when you're not allowed a save, does it?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Yes, because:

"Unless otherwise specified, no save [...]"

Ok, then please quote exactly where Ever-living specifies "This can be used after a Sweeping advance"?

ED: your quote must contain the words "Sweeping Advance" to be specified

Ok, then please quote exactly where Ever-living specifies "This can be used after a Sweeping advance"?

And again, it never says what you're claiming it does. If so, please quote where it specifically says that you can use Everliving to save your model from a Sweeping Advance.

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, it never says what you're claiming it does. If so, please quote where it specifically says that you can use Everliving to sav your model from a Sweeping Advance.

Necron codex p.29, explanation a to why it is allowed has been given further above.

And again, you're avoiding the question because it NEVER says anything about Sweeping Advance. You have NOTHING to support your claims.

Necron Codex, page 29, under the Ever-Living rules

"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to its unit. Instead place an Ever-Living counter where it was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter.

If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in Reanimation Protocols. If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned play, with a single Wound, within 3" of the counter. In either case, the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models. If the model is placed within coherency with one or more friendly units that it is eligible to join, it automatically joins one of those units (your choice). If the model was locked in close combat when it 'died', and the combat is ongoing, then it must immediately pile in. If the returning model cannot be placed, for whatever reason, it is lost and does not return. If the roll was failed, removed the counter from play "

Sweeping Advance is not mentioned under the EL rules. Curiously, neither does the rule specified what happens to a EL counter in a unit that was wiped out.
Though that did receive an FAQ. Oddly, it seems that a unit that falls back has to remove EL counters as well.