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Edit: There are currently two lists in this first post. The first is my original not so good one, and the next is improved due to constructive criticisms.

As described, this is my first proper Space Marine list, and any way to improve it would be most welcomed. Cheers!.

ORIGINAL LIST

+++ Ultramarines first list (1849pts) +++
+++ 1850pt Space Marines: Codex (2013) v60 Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Space Marines: Codex (2013) v60 (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ (No Category) + (260pts)

* Chapter Tactics
Ultramarines


* Command Squad (260pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics)
Bolt Pistol, Company Standard, Frag and Krak Grenades, Lightning Claw, Meltagun, Plasma Pistol, Power Armour, Power Axe, Power Fist, 3x Veteran
* Apothecary
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
* Company Champion
(Honour or Death)
Combat Shield, Power Sword
* Drop Pod
Storm Bolter


+ HQ + (260pts)

* Captain (155pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Independent Character)
Artificer Armor, Digital Weapons, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon


* Chaplain (105pts)
(Chapter Tactics, Honour of the Chapter, Independent Character, Liturgies of Battle)
Power Armour, Power Fist


+ Troops + (549pts)

* Scout Squad (159pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scout)
Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher, 6x Scouts, 5x Sniper Rifle
* Sergeant Telion
(Acute Senses, Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines), Eye of Vengeance, Stealth, Voice of Experience)
Bolt Pistol, Camo Cloak, Frag and Krak Grenades, Quietus, Scout Armour


* Tactical Squad
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads)
Flamer, Missile Launcher, 9x Space Marine
* Rhino
(Repair, Tank)
Storm Bolter
* Space Marine Sergeant
Chainsword, Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs, Veteran Sarg


* Tactical Squad (165pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads)
Grav-gun (Graviton), Multi-Melta, 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt pistol, Chainsword


+ Fast Attack + (205pts)

* Assault Squad (205pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads)
Flamer, Keep Jumppacks, Plasma Pistol, 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Combat Shield, Veteran Assault Sergeant


+ Heavy Support + (575pts)

* Devastator Squad (140pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads)
Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher w/ flakk, Plasma Cannon, 4x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt pistol, Chainsword


* Dreadnought (Heavy) (170pts)
Extra Armour, Multi-Melta, Venerable (*)
* Dreadnaught Power Fist
Storm Bolter
* Drop Pod
Storm Bolter


* Land Raider Redeemer (265pts)
(Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit)
Extra Armour, Multi-Melta, Storm bolter

Once again cheers in advance - all feedback most welcome and indeed appreciated!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


SECOND LIST (improved format aswell)

+++ Ultramarines first list (1849pts) +++
+++ 1850pt Space Marines: Codex (2013) (Primary Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Space Marines: Codex (2013) (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ (No Category) + (220pts)

* Chapter Tactics
Ultramarines


* Command Squad (220pts) - 2x Bolt Pistol, Company Standard, Flamer, Frag and Krak Grenades, Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs, Power Axe, Power Fist, Storm Shield
* Apothecary - Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
* Company Champion - Combat Shield, Power Sword


+ HQ + (250pts)

* Captain (145pts) Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon


* Chaplain (105pts) Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack


+ Elites + (165pts)

* Venerable Dreadnought (165pts) Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer, Dreadnaught Power Fist - Storm Bolter
* Drop Pod - Storm Bolter


+ Troops + (574pts)

* Scout Squad (159pts) Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher, 5x Sniper Rifles
Sergeant Telion


* Tactical Squad (210pts) Flamer, Missile Launcher - Flakk Missiles
* Rhino- Storm Bolter
* Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt pistol, Chainsword


* Tactical Squad (205pts) Meltagun, Multi-Melta
* Drop Pod - Storm Bolter
* Space Marine Sergeant - Chainsword, Combi-weapon


+ Fast Attack + (235pts)

* Assault Squad (125pts) 2x Flamer
* Space Marine Vet Sergeant - Bolt Pistol, Combat Shield, Power Weapon


* Stormtalon Gunship (110pts)
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter


+ Heavy Support + (405pts)

* Devastator Squad (140pts)
2x LC, 2x P C
* Space Marine Sergeant - Bolt pistol, Chainsword


* Land Raider Redeemer (265pts)
Hunter-Killer Missile, Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter


Thanks again bros

First a quick note of the rules in this section: Don’t post individual point costs for upgrades. Unit totals are fine. Full rules are in a sticky at the top.

I like battlescribe for tossing a list together, but it is very cumbersome to sift through when giving advice.

(working from the bottom up)
In general I think you overspent on upgrades. Less is more in a lot of cases, and if you shave off all the unnecessary upgrades, you can fit in a new unit.

Who’s in the LRR? Of all the land raiders, it’s the most focused as a battlefield taxi. You want some mean CC unit in there. At first I thought you were going to put the command squad in there, but they have a drop pod and a mixed weapon load.

Extra armor is not worth it in a world where you can have your HP worn off. Those points would be better served getting your dread a HF. The value of a venerable dread vs. an ironclad in a pod is arguable. He should work though. As a note, unless you have a MotF, he’s an elite.

While I am a huge fan of the TAC, little bit of everything approach to list building, it’s best done on a unit-by-unit basis, not within a squad. You Dev squad is a textbook example of why this is an issue. While you have the right tool for any job, most of the squad is going to be useless or overkill against any particular target. If you shoot at a flyer, sure you have the flack missile, but the PC can’t shoot at all, the LC needs a 6, and the HB is just going to spang off, assuming it hits. Pick a role, and gear for it. It’s OK to have a backup role in mind. For example, if you go 2xHB, 2xML your primary job is thinning out hordes. But you can take down light armor if needed.

I love plasma pistols from a fluff and looks POV. But they are worth nowhere near 15 points. Those points would buy your vet sarge a power weapon, which will cause a lot more carnage. I also advocate a smaller squad. I’ve found full 10 man squads are too cumbersome to keep behind cover and out of LOS, so get shot down before getting into CC. I’d run 5 men, duel flamers, power sword on a vet sarge. And get the chaplain a jump pack and stick him here.

Where is the foot tac squad going? I’d steer away from grav guns on any squad planning on moving that’s not relentless. Plasma is a better choice for tacticals.

The ML/F in a rhino is a classic.

Sniper scouts are fine.

Where is the chaplain going? If you are going to take a chaplain on foot, take Cassius. I’m not sure the fist is worth the points, I like my chaplain bare-bones, just his crozious and bolt pistol. Plus a jump pack.

For the points you spent on your captain you could do a lot better. Digital weapons are not worth it, I’ve already said my bit on plasma pistols. The artificer armor is good, and melta bombs are handy. But for those kind of points you could be swinging a LC/PF captain, who will do a lot more damage in CC.

The CC command squad should be able to cause some pain when it plows into something. I’d put them in the LRR though. It will keep them safe until they charge. Drop the plasma pistol and meltagun though. Those points would be better spend on storm shields and/or melta bombs.

Overall you lack AA.

Looking at your list a a whole, it’s not terrible, just a little unfocused. I’d take the command squads drop pod and give it to your other tactical squad. I’ve had good luck with a MM/M c-melta sarge drop tac squad. While 3 pods is a lot better for a hybrid drop list, two is workable. Drop the dread early as a disruption unit, and save the tacs for a late game objective grab.
Overall I think you could use a little more anti tank fire. So I’d gear up your devs for that. LCs preferably, MLs or PCs if you have to.
I’m not sure what you’d need to cut to get some AA firepower. Random upgrades would be a good start, possibly half the assault marines. I’d aim for a stormtalon, but one of the AA tanks or an ADL w/ a quadgun works as well.

Also you cant take that dreadnaught for heavy support without a master of the forge. You should pick up a copy of the SM codex

get a hunter or the other new AA tank

Do you own any models? What models do you want to use?

As a whole its already been said whats lacking, how to fix that, id go ML all the way as they are good AT and AI, Stalkers are also great AA, hunters do At/AA well.

I also play marines and am very much an advocate of boys over toys. Your scout squad in particular is way overpriced with weapons.

With regard to your dev squad, only take the original 5 troops and give them all the same weapon. I prefer the plasma cannon for all round pie plates!

Do you have any of the models or are you looking to start collecting?

Strip extra armor off the land raider it's useless without a tech marine

Your captain doesn't need digital weapons, strip em!

Your chaplain needs a jump pack, so he can buddy up with the assault marines.

Your scouts are fine

Your devestators are sketchy, focus their expertise, if their going at bring launchers, grav cannons, and lc's, if your going anti-inf take hb and plasmas

Your dreadnaught is fine I guess

Your tactical squad is schizophrenic. Focus

The veteran sergeants are all useless except for the assault squad. Lose em.

Cheers guys. I guess there's a fair amount I need to work on. But the feedback is really great, it's definitely given me ideas and really helps a new SM player!

I don't have many models but I am slowly building up the army but it's nice to have a decent list to work towards when collecting.

Btw, sorry about the points costs shown, i will change that now. Yeah, Battlescribe is great!

Devs pretty much need the same weapon. And don't make that weapon MLs. Go plasma cannon or lascannon.

Thanks again guys! Have changed the list so will update the original post. It has definitely changed for the better. I appreciate the comments guys, and your bluntness certainly helped!

One thing: is the captain too CC orientated? The model I want to use has a power weapon, but I love lightning claws! Also i suppose i could drop the hunter-killer missile and maybe something else to upgrade the stormtalon a bit as well...?

Btw I also put in the tac squad filled with meltas in a drop pod idea from Nevelon. I like the idea of that little group arriving next to an important tank and seeing my opponents reaction!

" but I love lightning claws!"

Unfortuantely, claws are now AP 3 and kinda gaky. All my ICs use axes or powerfists.

Drop melta tacs are good.

I'd drop all MLs and all hunter killers, as S8 AP3, like lightning claws is kinda gaky.

Some feedback from a marine player:

- flak misiles on a tactical squad are expensive, and you're basically discarding the fact that they can hit fliers if you're in a moving rhino... i'd drop this weapon all together and take melta bombs and a combi that matches the special weapon.

- The thing that makes the Stormtalon so good against most light and heavy infantry is the skyhammer missiles coupdled with the assault cannon. Those S7 shots will wound most things on 2s and maybe glance weak fliers. For just 125 points, that's the load-out I recommend.

- The scouts... scouts are good because you can take them bare-bones for dirt cheap. Take advantage of this by spending 100 points on a deep striking land speeder storm full of 5, or 110 points for an outflanking 10-man bolter squad. By the time you add weapons, cloaks, Teliion, they're basically a Tactical squad... which is infinitely better.

- I would not put your tactical marines in a drop pod... sending one of your scoring units alone into the enemy lines will just get them killed. Try for 3 pods so they can support each other, or just drop them into a rhino so they're survive longer. If you want something nasty in a pod, put some sternguard with combi-meltas or a command squad with 5 melta guns in a pod; they will destroy their target, and it doesn't matter if they die because they can never score. Keep in mind, that by making your opponent choose to spend one round of shooting on a unit like this keeps your troops alive.

- HQs: Finally, take advantage of the fact that you can take 2 command squads (captain and chaplain) or else upgrade the captain to a Chapter Master and equip him with enough gear to be a real nasty threat. A chapter master decked out in the land raider or on a bike alone is a nice threat. Or, you can always give him a 5-man unit of close combat scouts with a melta bomb to use as ablative wounds when running out of the LRR.

Hope that helps.

I think the ML gets to much hate,

1) its 48" range so a foot more then PC and same range as LC

2) its cheapest weapon option allowing for points elsewhere

3) against the ever so popular eldar/tau it can take HP off of serpents and instant kill suits, and even broadsides with a bit of luck

4) and vs new IG infantry spam the 4 templates are good, and the high S and good AP isn't wasted.

So though they don't murder tanks like LC, and they don't murder tons of TEQ, they are cheap, and can put a hurt on just about anything.

The ML is utter garbage. I strongly implore you to consider the fact that is horrible at all tasks you try to accomplish with it. There is too much 2+ armor in the game to even consider AP 3 being worth a damn.

Small templates that are S4 are terrible as well.

"it can take HP off of serpents"

Too slowly to matter because it is ROF 1.

"and can put a hurt on just about anything."

Except tanks. And anything with a 2+ save. You know, *the stuff that your heavy support is supposed to take out*.

I *guarantee* your lists will work better if you just pretend the ML doesn't exist.

The general consensus is three drop pods, and I have to agree. Although I don't know where I can fit an extra one in. What about putting the assault squads in one without jump packs? I prefer them with jump packs though. I like the idea of sternguard as well, but again I don't where to fit them in...

I had the flakk missiles for AA, but now there is the Stormtalon, so i'll drop them to free up some points.

Btw, I here your arguments, but I think i'll keep the ML for versatility and aesthetics.

I hear you on the scouts - will think about reducing these but telion missile launcher combo can be effective and sniper rifles are good at holding home objectives or in a high building and still adding fire support.

Might try to rewrite the list later, see what I can come up with.

Thanks for constructive criticisms!

Martel732 wrote:
The ML is utter garbage. I strongly implore you to consider the fact that is horrible at all tasks you try to accomplish with it. There is too much 2+ armor in the game to even consider AP 3 being worth a damn.

Small templates that are S4 are terrible as well.

"it can take HP off of serpents"

Too slowly to matter because it is ROF 1.

"and can put a hurt on just about anything."

Except tanks. And anything with a 2+ save. You know, *the stuff that your heavy support is supposed to take out*.

I *guarantee* your lists will work better if you just pretend the ML doesn't exist.

Though I agree that if you're trying to be efficient, the missile launcher is ineffective, I disagree with and think your statements are false.

1) "small templates that are str 4 are bad"
Sorry, not against anything T3 which should be your target with STR4 anyway unless YOU are bad. With these targets in mind a ML will be almost as effectual as a plasma cannon which still allows cover saves which will be taken for the most part anyway. Doesn't matter if it's AP6 or AP2. A guardsmen in normal cover gets a 5+ save no matter what.

2) too slowly because it's ROF 1
Sorry, this is WH40k. Not WM/H. ROF isn't a stat. It's Heavy 1. Just like a Lascannon. Wow. It's almost like you get the same number of shots with a missile launcher as with an LC. And you may say "But I can blow up tanks with my LC!" And to that I say "not a wave serpent you can't" which is what we're talking about so the number of shots the weapon gets is irrelevant unless you magically found another High Str devestator weapon with more shots. Or you can always try shooting at Wave Serpents with that nifty Heavy Bolter. I'm sure a couple shots will get through.

3) not against tanks and 2+ saves.
Okay, you got me on the 2+ saves but I'd still rather instant death anything with multiple wounds and wait for him to fail that 2+ save than ignore it with my plasma cannon and try to put 2-5 wounds on target while trying to avoid Gets Hot! Rolls and have him fail his invuln save that many times as almost every 2+ save model, multiple wounds or not, has an invuln. And don't point a Lascannon at anything with a 2+ save. Or a toughness value for that matter...

Against tanks: sorry what? You can literally glance every vehicle in the game and at least glance Wave Serpents, Heldrakes and Chimeras on a 4+ giving each missile hit a 50/50 shot of taking off a third of it's hull points. That's not great but nothing's great against wave serpents. Not even Lascannons and multi meltas (that's a great pen you got there... Nope) which brings me to my next point.

Monstrous Creatures. Unless you have no vehicles to shoot at, it would be folly to point your lascannons at them. It's a waste of points. You'll never have high enough strength to instant death them and even with the AP to get through their armor save, you'll never put on enough wounds to bring them down in one shooting phase. But the beauty of missile launchers is that they're so cheap and versatile that they don't really care what they're shooting at. Land Raider? Sure. Swooping Hive Tyrant? Sure. Orks? Why not? So go ahead and shoot your missiles at a Riptide or Wraithknight. You'll probably hurt it which makes another part of your army's job easier. Where as with a full unit of Lascannons, if you don't kill it, you've used 200+ points of shooting to accomplish nothing. Not good.

Really we're discussing an ineffecient weapons choice on an ineffecient unit choice so it doesn't much matter but I dislike the bad rap Missile Launchers always get

So there is now 4 people on dakkadakka who have a brain ^^.

Captain Galenus wrote:
The general consensus is three drop pods, and I have to agree. Although I don't know where I can fit an extra one in. What about putting the assault squads in one without jump packs? I prefer them with jump packs though. I like the idea of sternguard as well, but again I don't where to fit them in...

I had the flakk missiles for AA, but now there is the Stormtalon, so i'll drop them to free up some points.

Btw, I here your arguments, but I think i'll keep the ML for versatility and aesthetics.

I hear you on the scouts - will think about reducing these but telion missile launcher combo can be effective and sniper rifles are good at holding home objectives or in a high building and still adding fire support.

Might try to rewrite the list later, see what I can come up with.

Thanks for constructive criticisms!

I used a 2xFlamer, drop pod, 5 man squad of assault marines with Cassius along in my last list, and they did quite well. Even without a HQ tagging along they are a sub 100 point unit that gets to land where you want and light things on fire. Not a bad way to boost your pod count.

I like MLs, they are iconic with a lot of tradition behind them. 6th edition is making me question them a bit though. Smart opponents can space troops to make frags very iffy. Add the fickle nature of the scatter die to that and I find I regret every frag missile I send downrange. When I do get an optimal target, I scatter. And if you are only going to be catching one or two guys under the blast, you are probably better off with a krack for the higher S and AP value. And if all you are doing is shooting krack missiles, why not upgrade to a LC? How good they are can be effected by the skill and build of your opponent. If you face off against a lot of foot guard, or other hordes of soft targets, you can get a LOT of milage out of them. Assuming you can find a nice cluster to target.

MLs are like the marines that carry them. Kinda mediocre at everything. Sometimes this is a good thing, other times, you want a specialist.

Talion is a bit on the pricy side, but can work. There are some fun tricks you can pull with him on gun emplacements. Stick him behind an ADL with a lascannon for extra sniper goodness. Be careful with making your scout snipers too effective though, or someone will take notice of them and erase them from the table. Sometimes you want to sit back and lightly plink away for the whole game while the rest of your army takes the hits. Snipers primary job is to live till then end of the game: any damage they do is gravy.

Upgrading the captain to a chapter master isn't a bad idea at all. If you're going to stick with giving him a lightning claw, you may as well drop the power weapon and give him 2 claws instead of just one. He'll get an extra attack because lightning claws are specialist weapons - a model must have two special weapons of the same type in order to gain an extra attack. While I'm on the topic, giving him a thunder hammer and storm shield (or the shield eternal) is very solid. Also consider giving him a jet pack or a bike. Both are great ways of getting him stuck in.

If you get Telion, remember he comes with stealth which gives The entire unit stealth.

Then you Can further more buy camo Cloaks giving them 2x stealth = Nice in a ruin!