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So our local TO is making Codex: Imperial Knights usable for the local tournaments, but is uncertain about it.

Knights certainly aren't unkillable, but may be the sort of thing that new players (or even just certain armies) have issues dealing with, much like flyers before anti-air became more available.

Knights are only available to a selection of armies, rather than all of them. Other armies have Escalation units available, but many of those seem to be on an even further level of power. Currently Escalation is not legal for the tournaments; should including Imperial Knights also necessitate including Escalation, or does that open a whole new can of worms?

The rules for Super Heavies aren't found in the main rulebook (yet). Is this a further issue, or is it no different than "The rules for Reanimation Protocols/Power From Pain/Waaagh!/etc aren't found in the main rulebook either."?

So, my question is, taking into account that our area has a number of both experienced and new players, would you suggest making Imperial Knights, Escalation, or both available for tournaments, or keep them out for now?

Imperial Knights are relatively balanced (not to mention, they are a legit codex and not an expansion, like Escalation). D-weapons are a bit over the top, but Knights do help against Death-star-hammer, which is a positive. Escalation is bad because of ranged D-weapons--mainly from the Reverent and Transcendent C'tan. Knights can be frustrating, and they will change the meta. Escalation invalidates 95% of the game and kills gaming groups. The choice is easy.

Knights do JACK against the top deathstars. Yeah they would wreck face if they got into combat with them, unfortunately the top deathstars can out maneuver the knight and just dance until other things in the army kill it. The fact is they have no business being in competitive play solely on the grounds that the are restricted to the "good" guys, while the "bad" guys get nothing to counter (read they get no sprhvy of their own). In addition, while most armies have SOMETHING that can deal with them (especially if tailored), they invalidate about 70% of an all-comers army as being completely useless against them.


Of course you could let them in, let everyone bring them and then show up with the 9 FMC Tyranid list.......and watch the funnies!

Imperial Knights are fine IMO for normal non escalation 40k, I'd suggest playing a few games with them yourself, they arent as OP as the internet wants you to believe

Knights do JACK against the top deathstars. Yeah they would wreck face if they got into combat with them, unfortunately the top deathstars can out maneuver the knight and just dance until other things in the army kill it. The fact is they have no business being in competitive play solely on the grounds that the are restricted to the "good" guys, while the "bad" guys get nothing to counter (read they get no sprhvy of their own). In addition, while most armies have SOMETHING that can deal with them (especially if tailored), they invalidate about 70% of an all-comers army as being completely useless against them.

Knights are definitely slowed by terrain, but they do move 12" a turn. Many of the top deathstars cannot run forever at slower or equal speeds. Seer Council can run, but the rest are moving 6"-12" a turn. Units like Beaststar also rely on close combat to do damage, so if all a Knight does is keep them at bay, then the fight is already won.

I also thoroughly disagree that they invalidate 70% of "all-comers" lists. First, the idea of "all-comers" is all but dead now. Second, most armies have the ability to drop roughly one a turn, or just avoid and play to win (FMCs). Finally, the notion that Knights shouldn't be used because lists have to adapt is laughable. Every new codex forces changes. If you don't like it, you can't really play 40k.

Of course you could let them in, let everyone bring them and then show up with the 9 FMC Tyranid list.......and watch the funnies!

Yup...it's almost like there are a ton of ways to beat them . People get so hung up on the fact that they somehow need to kill everything to win games. Play to win missions. Hide troops in terrain and go to ground. You will be surprised how little those non-ignore cover blasts do to a 2-3+ cover save

I think a lot depends on what the players want. If they don't want to deal with LoW, then don't allow it.

I tend to think newer players likely do not have as large collection of models as more veteran players. For myself, I'm fine with Escalation/Stronghold Assault/Imperial Knights. I've got multiple army builds to work within those parameters. However, I'm sure there are newer players who likely do not have sufficient collections that their army could deal with a Revenant or Trans. C'Tan or 3-5 Imperial Knights. But, I'd also contend many newer players can't contend with Jetseer-star, O'Vesa-star,Beast-star, Centurian-star and any other beatstick deathstar armies out there that exist in the current tourney enviornment.

Get feedback from your local area and play what they want to play. If they want all the toys, let them use it. If they don't, the restrict it. If you don't listen to what they want to play, you may hurt your overall attendance numbers.

Knights are no big deal. If you brought tools to deal with AV 14, you can easily deal with knights.

Escalation is out though...Ranged D weapons are a problem. CC D weapons not so much.

 Leth wrote:
Knights are no big deal. If you brought tools to deal with AV 14, you can easily deal with knights.

Escalation is out though...Ranged D weapons are a problem. CC D weapons not so much.

This. It's ranged D weapons that are an issue. We've basically had CC D weapons since the C'tan came out in the first real Necron codex.

Not really at all though. C-tans never ignored eternal warrior, did Could not potentially one shot T6 models etc.

Throw in stomp possibly auto removing models, and it gets pretty dumb.

I don't think we should ban them necessarily, but their rules are pretty stupid in regular play. In many ways I'd rather face a single ranged D weapon with no CC D and No stomp than CC D and Stomp. Not that either are good, but if you play a CC army I think the latter is worse in a lot of ways.

Superheavy vehicles are still vehicles, and can be dealt with accordingly.

Knights are balanced to my mind, AV13/12 is nothing new, and their price matches their damage output.

If tau have riptides, and eldar have wraith knights, then imperials should get imperial knights (tbh, I feel riptides and wraith knights are more competitive).

 Leth wrote:
Knights are no big deal. If you brought tools to deal with AV 14, you can easily deal with knights.

Escalation is out though...Ranged D weapons are a problem. CC D weapons not so much.

Spot on

In the last doubles tournament at our FLGS one of the teams was fielding a knight. IIRC it was the debut of Knight’s at the shop. His team was tabled in all three of their match ups I believe, I know at least the first two games. The rest of his list was DA ravenwing bikes, knights and regular. His partner was Imp. Fists, with a CM/grav cent unit, some drop melta tac squads, and a TFC. While not major league tournament quality, not bad lists.

His tactics were not the best, and we ended up taking apart their army piecemeal. We might have had a little more AV then a regular TAC list, but my partner was a SoB player, so there was a little extra melta flowing around. But we definitely didn’t plan on seeing super heavies when we made out lists. Just our normal TAC mixes. The knight ended up being killed by a single seraphim squad with inferno pistols and a little luck (even with the shield pointed at them) But if they didn’t get the job done, a pair of exorcists in it’s flank and my drop melta squad behind it would have done the deed.

If he had hit our lines together, rather then staggering the bikes one turn and the knight the next, we wouldn’t be able to surround him. Not that it would have helped with the way the dice were rolling, but might have given him an extra turn. But once we got past “OMG Knight!” and looked at what we needed to do to put it down, we were less worried.

As was said, if you have the tools to deal with AV 14, you have the tools to deal with knights. In an ideal world, you want to hit them from multiple sides, to mitigate the ion shield. But even if you are shooting through it, it’s no different then blowing up a tank in cover. If someone was fielding a full knight army from their codex, rather then allying one to a normal force, you might not have enough AV fire. But the same would happen is someone was spamming LRs against you.

I’m not a fan of escalation in “normal" play. There is a huge difference between ranged D and the melee D of the knight. And some things there are just broken in a non apoc setting. Our FLGS also does not have tournament caliber death starts roving around, so I don’t see the need to include escalation as a hard counter to them. As for LoW, it’s not like all races get those evenly either, so fairness of access to big toys is a moving target.

On the availability of the rules, that’s no different then a codex or FW. At the start of the game you talk to your opponent and explain how things work. The super heavy rules can be boiled down to a few bullet points anyway.

All knight armies might be a little rough to face, but they can do nothing to flyers, so have a hard counter out there. And if you pack even a reasonable amount of AV fire into a TAC list, you should be able to deal with one or two. There will be a learning curve the first time you square off against them, but that can be said for anything new.

So my vote is that knights are OK, but lets not let the rest of the stuff in just yet.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Superheavy vehicles are still vehicles, and can be dealt with accordingly.

Knights are balanced to my mind, AV13/12 is nothing new, and their price matches their damage output.

If tau have riptides, and eldar have wraith knights, then imperials should get imperial knights (tbh, I feel riptides and wraith knights are more competitive).

Disagree on the Riptides Wraith Knight thing, AV 13/12 with 6 HP that cannot be exploded is very new.

As was said, if you have the tools to deal with AV 14, you have the tools to deal with knights. In an ideal world, you want to hit them from multiple sides, to mitigate the ion shield. But even if you are shooting through it, it’s no different then blowing up a tank in cover. If someone was fielding a full knight army from their codex, rather then allying one to a normal force, you might not have enough AV fire. But the same would happen is someone was spamming LRs against you.

Very different IMO than land raiders, Landraiders though tough are a non-threat in CC, and put out comparatively little dammage. That is my big thing some armies rely on CC to kill vehicles, against those armies knights are very powerful.

Knights IMO are a very random element. They can be devastating or not. I don't think they should be banned, but I also don't think they are no big deal.

Breng77 wrote:

As was said, if you have the tools to deal with AV 14, you have the tools to deal with knights. In an ideal world, you want to hit them from multiple sides, to mitigate the ion shield. But even if you are shooting through it, it’s no different then blowing up a tank in cover. If someone was fielding a full knight army from their codex, rather then allying one to a normal force, you might not have enough AV fire. But the same would happen is someone was spamming LRs against you.

Very different IMO than land raiders, Landraiders though tough are a non-threat in CC, and put out comparatively little dammage. That is my big thing some armies rely on CC to kill vehicles, against those armies knights are very powerful.

Knights IMO are a very random element. They can be devastating or not. I don't think they should be banned, but I also don't think they are no big deal.

While LRs themselves might not strike in CC, they almost always contain something very nasty in assault. So if you are using a CC unit to crack open a LR, you are probably in for a fight next round.

And while the stomps and D chainsword are nasty, they don’t guaranty victory in CC. The sword will kill 2-3 targets, and the stomp is d3 S6 AP4 small blasts at I1. It’s not going to be challenging, so your nob with the claw, or a sarge with a melta bomb is probably going to get his swings in. Yes, whatever kills the knight is probably going to die in the resulting explosion, but like suicide melta drops, sometimes you just need to exchange deaths.

Breng77 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Superheavy vehicles are still vehicles, and can be dealt with accordingly.

Knights are balanced to my mind, AV13/12 is nothing new, and their price matches their damage output.

If tau have riptides, and eldar have wraith knights, then imperials should get imperial knights (tbh, I feel riptides and wraith knights are more competitive).

Disagree on the Riptides Wraith Knight thing, AV 13/12 with 6 HP that cannot be exploded is very new.

Sure they can't be exploded in the traditional sense, however they are still effected by anti tank weapons of all varieties. If your list can deal with tanks normally, then your tactics won't change much for knights.
Riptides and wraithknights on the other hand can be horrendously difficult to deal with and can really change the way a game is played. They don't explode either, and only lose 1 wound at a time (as opposed to the potential D3+1 Hull points on a knight).
I think we will be seeing more riptides and wraithknights in the future, over imperial knights.

As if it were possible to see more riptides and wraithknights than we see now if that tells you anything

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Sure they can't be exploded in the traditional sense, however they are still effected by anti tank weapons of all varieties. If your list can deal with tanks normally, then your tactics won't change much for knights.
Riptides and wraithknights on the other hand can be horrendously difficult to deal with and can really change the way a game is played. They don't explode either, and only lose 1 wound at a time (as opposed to the potential D3+1 Hull points on a knight).

Their next codex will either make them walkers or the monstrous creature rules will be handicapped next edition. The pendulum swings...

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Superheavy vehicles are still vehicles, and can be dealt with accordingly.

Knights are balanced to my mind, AV13/12 is nothing new, and their price matches their damage output.

If tau have riptides, and eldar have wraith knights, then imperials should get imperial knights (tbh, I feel riptides and wraith knights are more competitive).

Disagree on the Riptides Wraith Knight thing, AV 13/12 with 6 HP that cannot be exploded is very new.

Sure they can't be exploded in the traditional sense, however they are still effected by anti tank weapons of all varieties. If your list can deal with tanks normally, then your tactics won't change much for knights.
Riptides and wraithknights on the other hand can be horrendously difficult to deal with and can really change the way a game is played. They don't explode either, and only lose 1 wound at a time (as opposed to the potential D3+1 Hull points on a knight).
I think we will be seeing more riptides and wraithknights in the future, over imperial knights.

Well except for D-cannons from other wraith knights, Force weapons, and other instant death causing weapons (there is no way to one shot a knight period), or poisoned weapons torrenting them down etc. Furthermore there are plenty of answers to tanks of all varieties that are poor choices against knights (again things that deal with them in CC.) Knights rarely lose D3+1 HP (that is the random part about them, if you roll hot on the vehicle table sure you can take them down, if not they are very difficult to kill) I'm certainly not saying Wraithknights and Riptides are bad (they are not) but they are no better than knights, and arguably easier for most units to deal with.

While LRs themselves might not strike in CC, they almost always contain something very nasty in assault. So if you are using a CC unit to crack open a LR, you are probably in for a fight next round.

And while the stomps and D chainsword are nasty, they don’t guaranty victory in CC. The sword will kill 2-3 targets, and the stomp is d3 S6 AP4 small blasts at I1. It’s not going to be challenging, so your nob with the claw, or a sarge with a melta bomb is probably going to get his swings in. Yes, whatever kills the knight is probably going to die in the resulting explosion, but like suicide melta drops, sometimes you just need to exchange deaths.

Things in land raiders these days are not super scarey in the assualt especially if the LR are spammed (then it is often things like troops). As for its performance in CC, its great if what you are using to try to assault kill it is a character in a squad of a ton of models, not so great if it is say a MC, or an elite squad, where losing 3 models is a pretty big deal. Stomp is S6 unless he rolls that 6 then ooopppp...you're screwed, you die no matter what (anyone else think a Knight stomping a wraithknight is a really stupid visual), and it can snipe out your character if he is still alive, or hit models outside the combat. Also consider that against lots of things S6 Ap4 small blasts do a lot of damage to units after pile in.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Knights are no big deal. If you brought tools to deal with AV 14, you can easily deal with knights.

Escalation is out though...Ranged D weapons are a problem. CC D weapons not so much.

This. It's ranged D weapons that are an issue. We've basically had CC D weapons since the C'tan came out in the first real Necron codex.

Ranged D is why I am very against Escalation in a tournament setting. Knights I have no problems with other than their cost in dollars and not being able to get as deep a discount on 40k as I can on the similar big models for Warmachine.

There are worse thiings in 40k

spamming Riptides and Wave Serpents is worse

I shall salivate at the lamentation of your women from beneath the gun of my Shadowsword. I hand out the D freely and to all. For it is the Johnson treatment and none shall be spared.

With that said, my area is uber competitive. Its fun having all of this D. We also use a house rule that invul saves stop D weapon damage.

 BunkerBob wrote:
I shall salivate at the lamentation of your women from beneath the gun of my Shadowsword. I hand out the D freely and to all. For it is the Johnson treatment and none shall be spared.

With that said, my area is uber competitive. Its fun having all of this D. We also use a house rule that invul saves stop D weapon damage.

I have a Shadowsword too

Shadowsword really is the best D slinger in the game for none apocalypse battles. The Guard with their cheap bodies really are the only race that can get away with it and still field a matric tonne of models to Guard it. See what I did there?