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Can you receive a cover save against the models standing behind an aegis defense line by standing in front of it. I had a long fang squad behind a defense line that was firing at a unit in front of the line. He claimed that since it blocked 25% of them that they receive a cover save from it.. I could see his point but it seems counterintuitive in a sense too.. The line is meant to be fired from. If I were being technical, then Due to the height of the line then every model fired at from behind it is obscured at least 25% since the taller sections are the same height as a SM. Thoughts?

The fact that the adl is technically classified as battlefield debris is what makes the call difficult in my mind.

Yep, true line of sight. Infantry size models right up against the front of an ADL are going to be obscured enough to earn a save from guys right behind it.

Remember, in 6th when in doubt, TLOS

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
Yep, true line of sight. Infantry size models right up against the front of an ADL are going to be obscured enough to earn a save from guys right behind it.

Remember, in 6th when in doubt, TLOS

I can definitely see the argument but my counterpoint would be that that effectively kills the defense line. That means you would have to be extremely careful about whether to place models behind the high sections of the wall which is all but about 8 inches of it. Plus there are gun ports that are at least modeled into the piece. If you use tlos then pretty much everything you shoot at from behind the wall would be obscured. If you are playing on a flat surface then any ground troops withing roughly 10 inches of the wall would get a save from it when charging at it. It just seems counterintuitive.

Dramagod2 wrote:

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
Yep, true line of sight. Infantry size models right up against the front of an ADL are going to be obscured enough to earn a save from guys right behind it.

Remember, in 6th when in doubt, TLOS

I can definitely see the argument but my counterpoint would be that that effectively kills the defense line. That means you would have to be extremely careful about whether to place models behind the high sections of the wall which is all but about 8 inches of it. Plus there are gun ports that are at least modeled into the piece. If you use tlos then pretty much everything you shoot at from behind the wall would be obscured. If you are playing on a flat surface then any ground troops withing roughly 10 inches of the wall would get a save from it when charging at it. It just seems counterintuitive.

This just in:
Cover can be bi-directional.

The Aegis has been out long enough that you have to believe GW intended cover saves granted to work both ways. I also always wondered why they didn't add an adendum to state the Aegis only provided cover to units behind it. Otherwise you are correct, you paid points to give your opponent a cover save if he gets close enough to be obscured.

rigeld2 wrote:

Dramagod2 wrote:

 nwabudikemorgan wrote:
Yep, true line of sight. Infantry size models right up against the front of an ADL are going to be obscured enough to earn a save from guys right behind it.

Remember, in 6th when in doubt, TLOS

I can definitely see the argument but my counterpoint would be that that effectively kills the defense line. That means you would have to be extremely careful about whether to place models behind the high sections of the wall which is all but about 8 inches of it. Plus there are gun ports that are at least modeled into the piece. If you use tlos then pretty much everything you shoot at from behind the wall would be obscured. If you are playing on a flat surface then any ground troops withing roughly 10 inches of the wall would get a save from it when charging at it. It just seems counterintuitive.

This just in:
Cover can be bi-directional.

I agree, though the snideness isn't necessary. This is a discussion.

but that is my main issue with this fortification. It's a gun line.. It's meant to be fired from.. And I'm not talking about a unit that braved the fire and is now pressed up against the outside of the wall. Even several inches out you get the save. Which in terms of reality would mean the space marines are standing back from the wall and firing indiscriminately with half their shots hotting their own defense fortification. If they were hiding behind a crumbled wall I could accept this. But the adl Is a defensive emplacement designed to be stood behind and fired from. It doesn't make sense that it would provide cover to those in front of it. It's a rules interpretation that doesn't jive with the sprit of the game which I know happens all the time but it is still kinda crappy..

It depends almost entirely on how close you are to the line, and how close your opponents are.

Models using the firing slits, for example, are nigh on impossible to prevent being obscured. But in turn, they have a more restricted view range- though models only begin being obscured if they're within six inches.

And if you're in base contact with the wall and the height of a guardsman/marine, then looking down over the short sections allows models anything further than a half inch away to be seen more then 75%

The further back you stand from the line, the further away opposing models may begin to claim cover saves. If you're literally touching the wall, only an opponent standing that close can get the cover save in turn. And if they are, you're in close combat.

If the firing unit is up against the line you're not going to be providing cover "several inches back". Since LoS is traced from the eyes and the eyes are above the wall, it'd take quite a bit for their targets to be obscured by more than 25%.

People standing farther back from the wall will have obscured targets much more easily, sure.

Let's say you have a marine standing right at the wall looking throug one of the slits and they fire at a model standing directly in front of them about 3 inches back from the wall, does said model get a cover save from the marines shots? In my mind the marine should be able to see them fully so no. That's why the slit is there. To allow los for the people standing behind it. Obviously if the enemy model was right up against the wall it would be different but the firing slits are small for my human eyes and it's difficult to tell Los through them when it comes to cover. I know I can see it and shoot at it but when the 25% argument comes up it gets dicey.

As Rigeld2 points out,
You measure from the eyes of the model when determining line of sight. This is why models standing within a inch of the wall rarely have to worry about the wall providing a cover save to their target, they either have a clear line of view over the top of it or through the slits themselves. Doesn't matter which side of the wall they are standing on at the time, their view will clear the wall and prevent the target behind from gaining a cover save from said wall. Works the same as Ruin walls, or any other solid piece of terrain that you might want to hug against to ensure only a one way cover save.

Don't models have to be in base contact with a piece of terrain in order to take cover behind it, or be within 2" of a model in base contact?

DarkCloak,
If such is a rule I would like to see the page it is written on....

Darkcloak: In a word: no.

It's all about true line of sight. With one notable exception regarding area terrain (pg 91, last paragraph on the left).

why would a wall blocking LOS to both sides, only give cover to one?

walls have two sides... either side could shoot over or through the fireing slits.

Easiest way to prevent this is to have your own models against the back side, enemies have to stay 1" away from your models at all times and as such would not be able to get close enough to be obscured from the models directly behind the defense line.

True Line of sight goes both directions, either the model is obscured or it isn't, if it is obscured (25% blocked from view) then it gets the cover save based on whatever is obscuring the model.

darkcloak wrote:
Don't models have to be in base contact with a piece of terrain in order to take cover behind it, or be within 2" of a model in base contact?

There are no rules in 40K for 'taking cover'. Models are simply in cover if they are sufficiently obscured by the intervening terrain.

JinxDragon wrote:
As Rigeld2 points out,
You measure from the eyes of the model when determining line of sight.

Is this in the rulebook (and if so, could you tell me where)? For some reason I had thought it was from the gun, even on infantry models (I know it is from the gun on vehicles).

p8 wrote:For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target's body (the head, torso, arms or legs).

I know this is an old thread but I recently had some new insight into it. Escalation and the brb state that "models in cover Behind a defense line recieve a 4+ cover. Since a defense line is a model with a front and back to me this would mean that the save was only afforded to those standing on the correct side of the line. In my eyes, this means that if you are standing obscured in fromt of the line you would recieve the 5+ cover for being in cover behind difficult terrain but not the additional effects awards specifically from the defense line, as you would have to be standing behind it to recieve the 4+. This seems correct to me but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different take on it. Thanks!

You can still be behind the defense line from the perspective of the firing models even if your models are on the front side of the ADL.

So the cover save goes both ways.