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Hi Dakka

I'm a long-time CSM player and I'm considering buying a detachment of Daemon allies to help my failing marines.

I don't have the Daemons codex and have very little knowledge about the units they have available and what would synergise with my existing army.

I have always preferred a fast(ish), close range assaulty type setup, but I've had almost zero success in this edition. My regular opponents are Eldar, C:SM, IG/AM & Dark Eldar so trying to change my army to a more shooty setup just leaves me hopelessly outgunned.

I'd welcome any insight and suggestions of what might be useful additions, please bear in mind that I don't have much disposable cash so I'm limiting myself to having a few extra units rather than starting a new army and having CSM as allies.

I currently own and use most of the units in the CSM codex, except the Heldrake (which I might purchase):

DP
Majority of SCs
PA Lord
Term Lord
Bike Lord
PA Sorc
Term Sorc
DA
20 x Terms
2 x Helbrutes
Berzerkers
NM
CSM
Cultists
Bikers
Spawn
Havocs
3 x Obliterators
2 x Defilers
2 x Magnetised fiends
LR
Pred

I'll purchase the Daemons codex but just wanted to solicit some ideas before I dive in.

Thanks in advance
Morls Balls

I'm just about to add some Daemons to my CSM. I'm looking at Daemonettes and Seekers, I run a very fast list and I need things that keep pace. The D6+3 run moves with the rending makes me very happy. I have proxied the them for a while and they always perform.

A Herald with 20 Daemonettes 5 Seekers for around 360pts

Hope this helps
Matt

I've been contemplating the same thing for my Thousand Sons


My army is split down the middle - lots of cheap, weak cultists for CC, with more expensive Elites for shooting.

I've been considering Horrors to deep strike in (if that's a thing? It must be a thing?) as troops, with the Daemon Turkey for shenanigans. I don't have the codex either and am reluctant to buy it just to find out that they're not particularly useful (at least as allies for my 1K Sons set up)



In the meantime - Be'Lakor
Sure he's very expensive (x1.7 a landraider), but boy does he make people cry and the mischief he causes... hehe

Read some of these.

What kind of CSM army do you run? If it's any of the four gods, there's a unit for you. IF you run undivided, remember that running undivided daemons is a bad idea.

I use a Lord of Change, Daemonettes and a Nurgle Soul Grinder. They have not let me down yet. (The daemonettes die like chumps, but they are 90 points so I don't give a damn.)

 Morls Balls wrote:
Hi Dakka

I'm a long-time CSM player and I'm considering buying a detachment of Daemon allies to help my failing marines.

I don't have the Daemons codex and have very little knowledge about the units they have available and what would synergise with my existing army.

I have always preferred a fast(ish), close range assaulty type setup, but I've had almost zero success in this edition. My regular opponents are Eldar, C:SM, IG/AM & Dark Eldar so trying to change my army to a more shooty setup just leaves me hopelessly outgunned.

I'd welcome any insight and suggestions of what might be useful additions, please bear in mind that I don't have much disposable cash so I'm limiting myself to having a few extra units rather than starting a new army and having CSM as allies.

I currently own and use most of the units in the CSM codex, except the Heldrake (which I might purchase):

I'll purchase the Daemons codex but just wanted to solicit some ideas before I dive in.

Thanks in advance
Morls Balls

Overall the Daemon codex is one of the better internally balanced ones of 6th. Almost everything is usable, so fitting your allies to fit into any kind of mono-list is easily do-able.

If you're looking simply for the 'top guns' however, you can't go far wrong with;
HQ's:
1) A Lord of Change w/2x Greater Rewards + Staff of Change (default Lesser Reward) + Lv3 Lore of Divination is perhaps among the game's best HQ options.
He's a serious combat beatstick thanks to S8/ap2 attacks which can also occasionally add-in an extra D6 S5 auto-hits to nearby units. Outside of a serious Deathstar or massive horde, almost nothing will stand up to him in combat.
He's also an awesome augment-bot. Prescience is a 100% guarantee due to being the Primaris power, plus you've also got access to rather nasty abilities like Misfortune, Forewarning, Foreboding and/or Precognition. (Precog + 2 Greater Rewards = profit!)

2) Herald of Khorne w/Axe of Khorne (default Lesser Reward) + Jugger + Hatred Locus.
Slap him into a unit of Khorne Puppies and watch them wreck face.
OR
Herald of Tzeentch w/Grimoire of True Names (Exalted default) + Disc + Lv3 (2 Div spells + Flickering Fire from lore of Tzeentch)
Your basic support Herald for a large unit of Screamers. He has some shooting potential, plus a pair of Divination spells for support and the Grimoire for boosting daemonic invulns.
The other version is to exchange the Disc for the +1S to spells locus and slap him in a large unit of 18-20 Pink Horrors for objective camping.
OR
Herald of Slaanesh w/Exalted Locus of Feth-you! (yes, it's really that good!) + Steed + Greater Etherblade (Greater Reward default) + Lesser Reward if pts allow (hoping for Cleaving Blow, otherwise take the default weapon for +1A)
Give her a large unit of Seekers and laugh. If you thought Challenges were good/bad before, enjoy how you can now 100% control who fights you while also handing out re-rolls like candy!

Elites:
1) Beasts of Nurgle
A unit no one ever sees coming, but they're essentially Nurgle Spawn who trade some speed & T6 for all the Daemonic bonuses AND their amazing Attention Seeker rule. Use them to support a unit that never wants to see combat, or else use them as an anvil for your assaulters to support.

Troops:
Actually, everything bar Bloodletters are solid! The poor 'Letters are best left to a Daemons primary army as they really, really require more Herald support and work best as turn 2/3 Deep Strikers who can take cover behind the main assaulters.

Fast:
1) Seekers
Even without a Slaany Herald to support them, a large unit is still terrifying due to mass Rending attacks combined with their speed due to being Cavalry unit type. And they're fairly cheap pts-wise for what you get.

2) Flesh Hounds
Really need the Herald of Khorne for support, but they're brutally effective. Just beware of massed S8 which will gut you really quick. The T5 Herald is good here since he can help tank S8/9 shooting for the unit, at least helping them get into combat fairly unmolested.

3) Screamers
*Must* have the supporting Tzherald on Disc to be anything beyond sheer annoyance value. With the supporting Tzherald however, you now have re-rolls in combat plus the (almost certain) option of using the Grimoire to boost their save to something silly-good.

4) Plaguedrones
They're tough and fast for a Nurgle unit. Massed poisoned attacks are always helpful, plus the swords of the riders can also glance tanks in a similar way to Necron Gauss weaponry.

Heavy:
1) Princes.
If you take a Greater, then like-marked Princes become a HS choice. Slaany Princes are tops due to their Greater Reward default option (a shooting attack that hits at the strength of the user) combining so well with their option to become a FMC.
A dark horse that no-one expects and doesn't cost an arm and a leg however would be a Khorne Prince w/Eternal Blade (aka, Eternal Beatstick!) + Greater Reward + wings. On the charge, he's S8 with almost guaranteed WS10/I10 and +1-3 added attacks. Combined alongside a Bloodthirster, you've got a pair of nasty combat monsters.

2) Soul Grinder.
Solid shooty support platform that can keep up with the advance while either throwing out a S8/ap3 pie-plate or a torrent S6/ap4 flamer.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I've been contemplating the same thing for my Thousand Sons
My army is split down the middle - lots of cheap, weak cultists for CC, with more expensive Elites for shooting.

I've been considering Horrors to deep strike in (if that's a thing? It must be a thing?) as troops, with the Daemon Turkey for shenanigans. I don't have the codex either and am reluctant to buy it just to find out that they're not particularly useful (at least as allies for my 1K Sons set up)

Honestly for Thousand Sons, I'd run the Daemons as the primary because Tzeentch most of all absolutely needs Herald support for his units. (when allying in, you only get 1 Herald instead of the 1-4 normally allowed)
True you only get 1 unit of actual 1ksons that way, but you're not knee capping your Tzeentch daemons either.

Keeping the CSM's as the primary, you essentially shoe-horn yourself into roughly;
- LoC w/2x Greater + Lesser (default always) Gifts + Lv3 Divination
- 2x 10 Horrors (your LoC won't be close enough to hep them without gimping his own worth, so may as well just go mins & objective camp)
- 9 Screamers
- Tzeentch Prince w/Grimoire (Exalted default) + Greater gift + wings + Lv2-3 either Biomancy or Telepathy (your preference)


Horrors are best used one of two ways;
1) Big squad of 18-20 w/Lv3 Tzherald (2 Div + Flickering Fire)
2) 10-man and just go-to-ground any time they're shot at to act as the ultimate objective camper. (3+ or 2+ cover/re-roll 1's)

Otherwise if you really want then, then just take the Portalglyph and each tur you have a chance at spawning a 'free' unit of D6 once the 'Glyph has been placed on the table.

An interesting, though less optimised option is to add an Exalted Flamer (rules found in WD weekly #7) to the large 18-20 man unit and give the unit the Blasted Standard. Anyone attempting to assault the unit gets to eat D3 auto-hits from Pink Fire's WoD, and then take an auto 2D6/S4 hits on top of it from the banner.
A good way for a Daemon primary detachment to keep trashy tie-up units from bogging down your main shooters for a turn or two. However, it only works once per game!

^ A nice writeup. I can't say that I agree with everything, especially Beasts of Nurgle, but as an overview it's extremely comprehensive.

Assuming that Daemons are being used as the Allied contingent, they can really bring some massive improvements to the CSM arsenal:

- You get decent Troops with minimal investment. CSM struggles here IMO with the only notable options being Plague/Noise Marines (Expensive to unlock), Plague Zombies (Even more expensive to unlock), or Cultists (In the absence of good units, take the least-bad).
On the other hand, both Plaguebearers and Daemonettes are fantastic units to have knocking around, being the defensive and offensive choices respectively, Horrors are very matchup-dependent but can do wonderful things with enough shots and some Herald support. And on that note...

- Divination! Praise the Dark Dudes above, sweet Divination for all. Invulnerable Saves on your Spawn, Prescience on your Spawn, Misfortune on your Spawn...
Spawn aside, get some massed firepower downwind. Ignore Cover is somewhat limited since it can only really be applied to Horror blocks but it still counts. Prescience is the real winner here and does good things with Obliterators, Chosen and Havocs. Even makes the Forgefiend playable.

- Fast melee. Flesh Hounds, Seekers, Daemonettes, Greater Daemons....
There is a whole host of murderers to choose from and they will all put Berzerkers to shame. Not only are they blisteringly fast and brutally stabby, they are typically cheap enough that they come in bulk numbers. The Grimoire tackles any defense problems they might have, and not a single one of them needs to waste points on a transport to get them in range.

Thank you all for the replies and information - it's all great stuff.

I think one of the main things I would find useful would be a reliable buffer so the LoC sounds great there. I've found sorcerors to be a bit too squishy.

After that I'll probably be getting some daemonettes, plaguebearers and hounds.

I'll pick up the codex and have a good read.

Out of interest can Daemons charge on theturn they arrive from deepstrike?

No they cannot, as it would be rather broken. What they can do however, is Deep Strike an Icon and it's active immediately, allowing you to 'chain' a whole army in around a single Icon in one turn.

Say you Deep Strike some Daemons with an Icon, they scatter normally. However all following Reserves, even those rolled in the same turn, can arrive within 6" without any scatter at all. It's pretty nifty and a nice way to get Daemons into unexpected angles.

Mozzamanx wrote:
No they cannot, as it would be rather broken. What they can do however, is Deep Strike an Icon and it's active immediately, allowing you to 'chain' a whole army in around a single Icon in one turn.

Say you Deep Strike some Daemons with an Icon, they scatter normally. However all following Reserves, even those rolled in the same turn, can arrive within 6" without any scatter at all. It's pretty nifty and a nice way to get Daemons into unexpected angles.

It should be noted however that to avoid scatter entirely requires the unit(s) & Icon(s) in question to share the same mark, AND, you also need Instruments (re: musicians) to effectively pull this off...

This is however a great way to make use of nasties like the Great Unclean One as you can Muso-Icon chain him across the board early game, or else for setting up the hard as nails 'Epidemius Bomb', where you land Epi's unit and then surround him with your hard hitters for no risk and massive gains.
Or else for getting Bloodletters/Daemonettes safely into the battle without having to footslog the buggers for 2-3 turns into all those nasty guns.

Can the Bloodthirster be used effectively in a fighty CSM list? And I assume IC daemons of one god can only join units of the same deity, correct?

 Sephyr wrote:
Can the Bloodthirster be used effectively in a fighty CSM list? And I assume IC daemons of one god can only join units of the same deity, correct?

1. Absolutely a Bloodthirster can be an effective assault beatstick for a CSM army. Hell, his base equipment he comes with means you don't even need to give him any added Rewards either! Axe of Khorne for ID'ing enemies on a 6 to-wound? Check. 3+ armour save? Check. Flying Monstrous Creature? Double check!
Another tactic is to splurge on an Exalted Reward and default to the Grimoire of True Names, which can be used to boost the Daemonic save of units like Oblits, Possessed and/or Warp Talons, etc... which gives those latter units a much need boost.

2. Yes, Heralds can only join units belonging to their respective God, so no leading a bunch of Bloodcrushers with a Steed-mounted Slaany Herald, or Palanquin Nurgle Herald tanking hits for a group of Bloodletters.

I've been thinking of getitng rid of my land raider and getting a Bloodthirster. Nice to know it's an option. Other than the Grimoire, are there any must-have rewards that keep him around killing stuff longer and harder?

 Sephyr wrote:
I've been thinking of getitng rid of my land raider and getting a Bloodthirster. Nice to know it's an option. Other than the Grimoire, are there any must-have rewards that keep him around killing stuff longer and harder?

2x Greater Rewards should give him some really solid extra protection. The only risk is that one of the results is to give him a 3+ armour save, which he already has. (and no, you can't re-roll it either due to it being different from the army list armour option!)
If you do get Unbreakable Hide, you can always swap it out for a Greater Etherblade and gain +1A for having a pair of specialist weapons, so it's not entirely a waste of pts. (just a very expensive extra CCW!)

Some of the Exalted Rewards are pretty boss too, so keeping the likes of Riftbringer, Souleater or Warp Tether is always doable, especially if you don't have any other decent targets for the Grimoire. (as you can't use it on the guy who's carrying it.)

I also have been looking into Daemon allies as stubbornly attempting to make C:CSM work standalone is getting tiresome, every other army I face rerolls everything.

That's why I've settled on Tzeench. LoC, Horrors, and some Seekers. Gives me divination, some throwaway DS troops and the amazing Seeker unit which has a level of mobility CSM cannot access from their own codex (apart from the Drake).

Slaanesh is also very appealing, however one of my primary opponents is all Slaanesh (CSM/CD) and mirror matches are stupid.

Nurgle I feel adds nothing to CSM, seeing as Nurgle is already the 'best' choice for CSM and CD Nurgle is slow, like CSM.

Khorne, yeah dogs could work I guess, seen a few people get some great mileage out of them. Don't like dropping 250+ pts into a Bloodthirster though, who adds nothing but another boatload of attacks (which are hardly in short supply in C:CSM).

Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

 herpguy wrote:
Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

I'm already deep into the depression stage of stubbornly trying to play pure CSM without allies or Heldrakes, so it'll be good to have a change.

Hopefully adding some Daemons can help my guys be a bit more robust and effective.

 herpguy wrote:
Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

Except shooting...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

Except shooting...

Tzeentch heralds+Flickering fire=Where are your gods now?

I made the switch to daemons explicitly because, I too share your love of fast units full of hacking slashing death. I have had very much acceptable levels of success with hounds. They work pretty well in the allies slot as they can support themselves. I'm of the thought that it's pretty much mandatory to bring a herald with them. 150 pts for a guy that's as killy as a daemon prince and now gets to scout with the hounds? Yes pls. You have two options for him: 1 greater and 1 lesser (axe of khorne for AP2 and ID on 6's) or one Exalted (grimoire for the doges). I'm really not sure which one's better. Grimoire obviously makes them a lot more survivable IF you go first and IF it works, which 1/3 of the time it doesn't. He really benefits from having AP2 as he has the potential to be a pretty awesome beatstick, and the greater reward can definitely do good things for him. Kinda thinkin i like the lesser + greater set up. If you go for the full monty its 560 points for him, 20 hounds, and the troop tax.

 Kain wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

Except shooting...

Tzeentch heralds+Flickering fire=Where are your gods now?

My only problem with this is that it requires that you bring either A.) ~20 pink horrors or B.) go screamer star. As allies the horrors are your only choice, as you can't bring more heralds. I dunno though it could be kinda cool. He'd be around 150 points then w/ ML3 and an exalted, then drop him with 180 points of horrors. Deep strike in and let the flickering fire roll. They have a big foot print and would be oh so juicy for blast templates though. If going Tzeentch a LoC is probably your best option.
What do you support him with though? to my knowledge the only way to get the grimoire for him would to bring a DP in the heavy slot, and now you're looking at a pretty big investment. He kinda falls flat without the grimoire if you ask me. Although, OP if you do invest in a heldrake, the LoC, DP, and Heldrake + CSM DP with the Black Mace does make a decent Flying Circus if you wanted to go that route. . . LoC and DP add respectable dakka to your list, as well as the heldrake, and all the FMCs are obiously badasses in combat. Could be interesting.

 Kain wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
Once you start using daemons allies it will depress you as it will make you realize even more how crappy the CSM codex is.
Seriously, daemons do everything better.

Except shooting...

Tzeentch heralds+Flickering fire=Where are your gods now?

While Flickering Fire is indeed deadly, it's also very, very random and against certain armies is only a 50% chance of going off.

If CSM's are actively being outshot by Daemons, then the CSM is either:
1. Playing a purely CC Khorne/Slaanesh army
2. Doing it completely wrong!

I play a mono-Tzeentch DoC and it's always a dicey prospect whether my shooting goes off with a real bang or just fizzles out.
Against anyone who's lacking psyker protection, all that S5/6 Horror/Tzherald shooting is amazing. But against anyone with some psyker protection, suddenly my Flamers/Screamers/Grinder are being forced to do a lot more heavy lifting to carry the day.

The near complete lack of reliable non-psychic shooting is the main reason why I want to add CSM allies for things like some basic shooty marines, a Helldrake & Forgefiend especially!