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So here's a situation. Yesterday i ran 20 enchanted space marines with s5 vs a squadron of russes - punisher, exterminator. Punisher has av11 back armor and exterminator with av10 back armor. We were not sure how to roll to-pen cause unlike shooting at a squadron, where each shot is resolved separately, fighting in mellee vs a squadron states something like: "Strike all at once and resolve pens/glances separately".

So, what does it mean? I got to roll to-hits with, say, 50 attacks, 35-40 will hit and i'll have to roll 35-40 to-pen dice separately? And vs which tank first if they're both in base contact simultaniously?

Right now i think that it works this way:

1. You roll to-hit, get a number of hits.
2. You state which weapons are counted to-pen first if you have them mixed.
3. The opponent decides which tank you're hitting choosing from those in base contact with the attacker - av11 back or av10 back, thus if you've decided to strike with s4 guyz, all the hits will be negated if at least one tank has av11 back armor.
4. You resolve each to-pen separately against a tank your enemy chooses. If it gets wrecked eventually, your opponent chooses another tank and you proceed.

Is that correct?

When attacking a Squadron you hit the first tank and any glances and pens that over kill it spill over into the other tanks without regard for what their armor is.
Go look up the Squadron rules in the Vehicle section of the BRB .

There is also an FAQ regarding this.

But what if he is in base to base with both tanks?

Then you allocate which models are attacking which tanks before rolling to Pen, thus answering your own question.

The only difference being that any excess pen/glances caused to either tank after they lose their last Hp (Which are in the squadron) are applied to all other tanks in the squadron until the Pen/Glance pool is emptied.

Example: Tack Marines charge a squadron of tanks making base to base with two of them. (Presuming the tanks moved) there are 20 CC attacks hitting on 3+s' and (Presuming the use of Krak Grenades) glancing on 4's pinning on 5's (Against rear armour 10) and glance rear armour 11 on 5's and pin on 6's. So for arguments sake, this set of attacks produces 3 pins and 3 glances to the squadron, (A total of 6 HP) and one of the pens is an explode result (My choice the second one rolled) leaving the other 1 pen and 3 glances to be placed on the other tank/Tanks in BtB until it runs out of HP and if there is a third tank (Not in BtB) then the remaining HP lost are taken off of that one.

I disagree BladeRiker,
In the opening blurb itself states that Squadrons are treated as a single Unit unless a specific exception is mentioned, and then it goes on to inform us what these Exceptions are. Now there is an exception for Assaulting Squadrons but this exception does not address the allocation process, it only informs us that we can not 'Fast Dice' the Hits generated and must Allocate them instead. It finishes by informing us that we Allocate those Hits to the Models in base to base contact first, then any model which is closest. It finishes that paragraph with three very key words: Just Like Normal. Nothing in the 'exceptional' Allocation process has changed the method used to allocate Hits to a vehicle when compared to Allocating Wounds to a model, and it ends by informing us to follow normal Allocation processes.

So this question is all that needs to be raised to come to the correct conclusion:
During an Assault, if multiple Models in a Single Unit are in Base to Base contact, how do we determine which is Allocated to first?

You attack, with some S4 and some S6 attacks in the unit.

You get 12 S4 *hits* and 7 S6 *hits*.

You decide if you want to allocate the S4 or the S6 hits first.

They are allocated to the 'closest' vehicle first. If more than 1 vehicle is in base contact, the opponent gets to decide which one is the 'closest'.

edit: When the hit is allocated, then you roll to see if you penetrate the armor, then roll for damage if appropriate.
If you still have hits to allocate when that tank is destroyed, you move on to the next closest tank.

Opponent as in the owner of the tanks, yes?

So then if the attacker knows that this could happen the use of Krak Grenades is warranted making all attacks with the exception of Melta Bombs/Power Weapons Str 6 and thread a moot point.

What it comes down to is this. The attacker (Which should be informed about the AV) of the targets should make the correct call and place the more powerful attacks on the tank with the better AV, and the lesser attacks on the target/targets with the lesser AV, thus removing this as a question in the first place. (If they are playing that the hits taken by one tank are resolved on that tank first)

So as above if 6 Str 4, and 6 Str 6 hit happen the player in control of the attacks choose which set hits first and which hits second, but the player controlling the tanks decides which tank (in the case of having more than one in BtB) will start taking those hits. As above if the first Tank dies and there are left over Hit they are allocated to the next tank in BtB, and so forth.

Where in the Rules does it state that the Attacker gets to allocate wounds?

 don_mondo wrote:
Opponent as in the owner of the tanks, yes?

That was what I intended... "opponent" is the owner of the tanks.

I also added this edit:
edit: When the hit is allocated, then you roll to see if you penetrate the armor, then roll for damage if appropriate.
If you still have hits to allocate when that tank is destroyed, you move on to the next closest tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

What it comes down to is this. The attacker (Which should be informed about the AV) of the targets should make the correct call and place the more powerful attacks on the tank with the better AV, and the lesser attacks on the target/targets with the lesser AV, thus removing this as a question in the first place. (If they are playing that the hits taken by one tank are resolved on that tank first)
.

Just to be clear... the rules do *not* support the above. You attack the squadron, you do not get to allocate attacks onto specific tanks.

The rule is pretty clear on pg 77. Resolve hits against the closest model until all hits are resolved.

The closest model cant be determined if more than 1 tank is in b2b. so that is not in fact the issue.


Yes, if you choose to allocate the str4 hits first, he can, assuming you have models in b2b with the higher armor tank, allocate them all to that tank and negate them.

Thats why you dont use str 4 attacks and instead use your krak grenades for str6.



The answer to the OP has already been given.

The attacking player determines the order of the pens if they are of varying str or AP, then the defending player chooses how to allocate them.

However, for example, if the defending player choose to allocate the str 6 wounds to the armor 10 tanks first, because of vehicle squadron rules, you would roll all of the str6 pen rolls at the same time, and apply all of the results before you moved on to rolling for the lower str pen rolls.

This means that if you were to somehow roll 4 pens and 2 glances on the str6 pen rolls, you could potentially roll 3 explodes results and wipe the squadron before any other rolls were made.

Eihnlazer, you would not roll all the pen rolls at the same time, as the squadron rules specifically say to resolve the hits one at a time.

It would go thusly:

1. Attacker decides which weapons he is attacking with (str 4 normal hits, krak grenades, etc.) Roll to-hit as normal, which means you can do all the hits together. Be sure to differentiate between weapon types with different color/size dice, as normal.

2. Attacker gets to pick which group of hits to resolve in the order he chooses, one at a time. This means if he got 10 str 4 hits and 4 str 6 hits, he may choose to do all of the str 6 ones first, or all of the str 4 ones first.

3. Defender takes the hit that the attacker chose and places it on any valid target (the AV 10 or AV 11 tank). In this case, if the attacker chose to start with a str 4 hit, the defender can allocate it to the AV 11 tank and negate it.

4. Roll for armour pen and (if applicable) damage chart as normal. If a vehicle is wrecked or explodes, no further hits can be allocated to it.

5. Repeat with all further hits until all hits are resolved.

Edited to make it a step-by-step list.

At step 2, it would be foolish to apply the str 4 hits until the AV 11 tank is dead, however, the defender may decide to put the str 6 hits on the lower AV tank, in hopes that it will take all the str 6 hits and then the AV 11 tank is free to take all the str 4 hits. A gamble either way.

Edited again cuz I was wrong about stuff.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The closest model cant be determined if more than 1 tank is in b2b. so that is not in fact the issue.

The close combat rules address this specifically.
The defending player chooses who takes the hits.

 Leonus wrote:

2. Attacker gets to pick which hits to resolve in the order he chooses, one at a time. This means if he got 10 str 4 hits and 4 str 6 hits, he may choose to do the str 6 ones first, or any mix of the two.

3. Defender takes the hit that the attacker chose and places it on any valid target (the AV 10 or AV 11 tank). In this case, if the attacker chose to start with a str 4 hit, the defender can allocate it to the AV 11 tank and negate it.

I disagree with this. The Squadron section mentions explicitly and implicitly about allocating hits as you would allocate wounds for non-vehicles. To that end, I think the attacker can start with the S4 or the S6, but must allocate all of those before moving to the other ones.

Likewise, once the defender picks a tank to allocate hits to; they need to continue allocating to that tank until it is dead or the 'hit pool' is empty.



I agree with the rest of the list.

Also, can you do precision strikes while fighting vs a squadron?

Do they require a successful wound or armour penetration?

Requires a 6 to hit on the attack roll. Course, the rest of the rule talks about how to handle the wounds................

I'm aware of the first requirement, but if there is no allowance to transfer succesful armour penetrations or, in the case of squadrons, *hits*, then the more specific - i.e. only - rules would kick in, so a 6 t-hit on a squadron is no better than any other succesful hit.

But you transfer them before rolling to wound or penetrate, so you're not transferring successful armor penetrations, you're transferring a hit that may or may not penetrate. Same for wounds, transfer first, then roll to wound. So even tho the rest of the rule talks about wounds, wouldn't the transfer hit mechanism still work?

Course, against vehicles, you may not even have a to hit roll if the squadron didn't move. Altho I personally move mine every turn just cause.

Yes, but the rules for PS only talk about successful wounds being able to be allocated - yet not even pens /' glances are transferred, but hits. So we have a PS "hit" of a 6, but that hit is the general pool of hits to be allocated - it isnt special.

Fair enough. I'll be running a mixed rear armor squadron this weekend so this thread has actually been useful as more than an academic exercise.

coredump wrote:

 Leonus wrote:

2. Attacker gets to pick which hits to resolve in the order he chooses, one at a time. This means if he got 10 str 4 hits and 4 str 6 hits, he may choose to do the str 6 ones first, or any mix of the two.

3. Defender takes the hit that the attacker chose and places it on any valid target (the AV 10 or AV 11 tank). In this case, if the attacker chose to start with a str 4 hit, the defender can allocate it to the AV 11 tank and negate it.

I disagree with this. The Squadron section mentions explicitly and implicitly about allocating hits as you would allocate wounds for non-vehicles. To that end, I think the attacker can start with the S4 or the S6, but must allocate all of those before moving to the other ones.

Likewise, once the defender picks a tank to allocate hits to; they need to continue allocating to that tank until it is dead or the 'hit pool' is empty.



I agree with the rest of the list.

You are correct sir, I had that wrong.

Leonus nailed it. Use that system and you can't go wrong. The most fair.