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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hi all,

Thank you all for the last round of questions that you helped me out with. My gaming group has played a few more games and it's quite a bit of fun. I'm heading over to the FLGS in my area on Tuesday to play a few games with some randoms and need some basic stuff clarified. The questions concern power attack/combat actions and unit activation.

1 - Power Attacks/Combat Actions - According to the QStart Guide under Combat actions, it mentions that a combat action can be a ranged or melee action, but not both. It can then spend focus to buy more attacks. Then it mentions that instead of attacking normally, a model can make one special attack (* Attack) then spend focus to buy more. It then qualifies PowerAttacks as *Attacks in the next column. The WM Rulebook states that a model might be entitled to make one combat action on page 48, qualifies Special Attacks as * Attacks on pg 49, then calls Pwr Attacks "Special Attacks" on pg 51.

Taking all of this together, I gather that:

If a model, let's say a Warjack, makes a * Action, this action does not cost a focus, and it cannot attack normally unless it purchases additional attacks. The same follows for a Power Attack, that the Warjack cannot make normal attacks before or after the PwrAttack unless it spends focus. The difference here is that the Pwr Attack costs focus, whereas the * Action does not.

My question: Is all of this correct? Namely that a model is entitled to one movement action and one combat action, with the details listed as above? Does it count the same for Warcasters casting offensive spells - that they count as combat actions too? I would assume so since it would involve an attack roll of some type, but not entirely sure.

2 - Unit Activation - When unit activates, does the controlling player move ALL the models first, then proceed to resolve combat actions, or do they move-combat action each model one at a time? The reason I ask has to do with unit activation and formation. Assuming that a unit is in formation at the beginning of its activation, if a trooper charges a target which then brings that trooper OUT of activation, is that model entitled to its combat action? I would assume not, since the WM rulebook explicitly states that out of formation models cannot make actions (pg 71). I take it that units follow formation rules at all times, even though checks only occur at the beginning and end of an activation period.

Assuming that models move-act one at a time, this would mean you would always want to put the leader as far forward as possible and resolve his actions, then make the charge with the other models that are potentially left behind. The model left behind would not have to make full advance toward the leader because they were in formation at the start of the activation, and as long as they wind up in the bubble, can complete combat actions. This method makes most sense from a strategic sense, but I'm not 100% if it's correct.

Thanks all for your help!




This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/05/05 16:10:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

1: That's about right. A war-noun casting spells does not take an action of any sort, however. Casting spells for them is an any time action, and so they can cast whenever so long as it doesn't interrupt movement or an attack. So for example you can:

Cast
Declare a charge
do charge movement
cast again
make charge attack
cast
use second initial attack (if you have one)
cast
buy attack
cast
etc.

Similar for warbeasts and their animi (though those are once a turn) or beasts with geomancy that can be forced to cast.
Most models with spell casting ability use it as a *Action though, so those take up your combat action.

2: Move everything, then do combat actions model by model. The only exception is Combined Range/Melee Attack (CRA/CMA) where the combat actions of models can be interspersed. Otherwise every model moves completely before another model starts, then after everyone gets moved every model does its complete combat action before the next model.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







Hi!

You seem to have 1. down more or less. Basically when you make your combat action you choose whether you want to make your initial melee attacks, initial ranged attacks, a special attack or a power attack. After you've done that, you can make additional attacks as part of your combat action. And yes, you're right that *Attacks on a model's card don't cost focus, but that power attacks do cost focus.

A Warcaster or Warlock can cast spells at any time during their activation, with the caveat that they can't do it during a move or during an attack. So you could activate your Warcaster, cast an offensive spell, then move, make your initial attacks, then cast another spell. You could not cast a spell halfway through your movement and then continue, and you couldn't roll to hit with an attack and then cast a spell before you roll for damage, or something. You are also specifically unable to cast them if you ran.

With units, page 42 has what you want, under "Activating Units." The gist is each trooper completes its movement, then each trooper completes its action, so charging out of command range is fine as long as it's back in command range when it makes its action.
   
Made in us
Druid Warder




SLC UT

1) A way to look at it is this. When a model performs its combat action, it has these initial choices:
- Normal attacks (just use weapons on front of the card)
- One *Attack
- One *Action

The thing you're confusing is that *Attacks and *Actions are not the same thing. But you are right in that if you do a *Attack, you make no other attacks unless you purchase them. Note that the book does define additional attacks as well, and they are normal attacks (the weapon as listed on the card). And you can only buy additional attacks of the sort the weapon was. Power attacks are *Attacks that cost focus to perform.

An example for this is the Cryx Slayer helljack. It has a *Attack called Combo-Strike. If the warjack does its normal attacks, it gets two claws and its tusks, and then can spend additional focus to gain more attacks with any of these weapons. If it instead uses Combo-Strike, it gets one Combo-Strike attack as described in the rule, and since it performed a melee attack, can purchase additional claw or tusk attacks with focus (which are normal attacks).

Similarly, if a warjack were to headbutt another, it would consume all of its initial attacks, and then it could spend focus to buy additional after that.

Note that if you purchase any additional attacks, you have finished your main combat action. So you can't for instance buy a claw attack before a Combo-Strike or a headbutt, then perform the attack. You do the normal and special stuff first, then move on.

By contrast with *Attacks, if a model performs a *Action, they cannot buy any additional attacks, as *Actions are neither ranged or melee attacks, and so you can't buy additional of either of those.

Warcaster spellcasting is different. Spellcasting for warcasters is independent of movement and action. A warcaster can cast at pretty much any of these times:
- Before movement
- After movement
- Before making any attack or action
- After making any attack or action

The only thing you can't do is interupt your movemnt (You can't walk 4", spellcast, then walk 2" more), or interupt an attack resolution (so no casting a spell after seeing if you hit an attack but before rolling for damage). They are much more flexible in this regard than other models.

2) You move ALL the models first, then perform their actions. When all models have completed their combat actions, the unit's activation ends. So for formation, you move everyone, see who's in CMD of the leader when everyone's in place, and everyone out loses their action, while the rest of the unit goes along normally.

And stuff.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




 Wehrkind wrote:
1: That's about right. A war-noun casting spells does not take an action of any sort, however. Casting spells for them is an any time action, and so they can cast whenever so long as it doesn't interrupt movement or an attack. So for example you can:

Cast
Declare a charge
do charge movement
cast again
make charge attack
cast
use second initial attack (if you have one)
cast
buy attack
cast
etc.

Similar for warbeasts and their animi (though those are once a turn) or beasts with geomancy that can be forced to cast.
Most models with spell casting ability use it as a *Action though, so those take up your combat action.


This is not technically correct. After you do your charge movement you then check to see if your charge is successful.

If it is, then you continue as you stated.

If your charge does not succeed then your activation ends immediately. Therefore you can not fail your charge and cast spells to make your charge successful by either moving your caster or bringing your charge target closer to you.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Very much appreciated. This helps a ton. Your responses in Question2 means that we'll have to put more consideration into which units-go-where when deciding to attack multiple models with say, a unit of BThralls or KExemplars, in order to not overkill a target. But this also clears up out-of-formation concerns considering actions occur after the entire unit has moved. A follow up here: If the unit commander gives the order to his unit to "Charge," and only two of the models are able to successfully make the charge distance to their intended targets either because of intervening terrain or models clogging up the path, the models that fail are considered to have preformed a "failed charge" and retain the movement distance toward the model they nominated. Namely, that once the charge order is given, that is all that the unit can do, and cannot revert to any other type of movement or action and follows the rules stated for "Failed Charge." Is this correct? And for the models that successfully preformed the charge, are they still allowed their action even if others in the unit failed theirs?

And Blaque, if we could clarify one of your statements:
 Blaque wrote:
1)
Note that if you purchase any additional attacks, you have finished your main combat action. So you can't for instance buy a claw attack before a Combo-Strike or a headbutt, then perform the attack. You do the normal and special stuff first, then move on. By contrast with *Attacks, if a model performs a *Action, they cannot buy any additional attacks, as *Actions are neither ranged or melee attacks, and so you can't buy additional of either of those.


So, a Slayer can purchase additional attacks because Combo-Strike is a *Attack, but WWitch Denegra cannot purchase additional attacks after using Seduction (*Action) because there is no attack element to the action, thus ending her combat-action. However, she can cast spells before and after. Correct?

Also, can models with *Attack-Thresher use the skill after a charge, and all the targets suffer the boosted damage considering it is a single attack that hits multiple targets?

Lastly, regarding "Additional Attacks," they seem to only be applicable to warcasters/locks and jacks/beasts. As such, a model such as Bane Lord Tartarus make his *Attack Thresher, but cannot make additional attacks from the front of the card because it cannot use focus to purchase them, correct? Or are additional attacks more general, and always allowed at the end of a combat action? Pg 75 defines additional attack through focus, but 48 seems to imply that it is for everyone. - Nevermind on this one, the QSGuide says more succinctly that additional attacks are obtainable through spending focus.

Thank you all again for your help.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2014/05/05 17:54:18


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


This is not technically correct. After you do your charge movement you then check to see if your charge is successful.

If it is, then you continue as you stated.

If your charge does not succeed then your activation ends immediately. Therefore you can not fail your charge and cast spells to make your charge successful by either moving your caster or bringing your charge target closer to you.


Fair enough; I was assuming the charge was successful to demonstrate that you can cast between charge movement and the charge attack, but I suppose I should have mentioned somewhere in there that the entire second half of the list only can happen if the charge is successful. Of course it also presumes you didn't get knocked down or slammed along the line too.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Druid Warder




SLC UT

citadel wrote:
Very much appreciated. This helps a ton. Your responses in Question2 means that we'll have to put more consideration into which units-go-where when deciding to attack multiple models with say, a unit of BThralls or KExemplars, in order to not overkill a target. But this also clears up out-of-formation concerns considering actions occur after the entire unit has moved. A follow up here: If the unit commander gives the order to his unit to "Charge," and only two of the models are able to successfully make the charge distance to their intended targets either because of intervening terrain or models clogging up the path, the models that fail are considered to have preformed a "failed charge" and retain the movement distance toward the model they nominated. Namely, that once the charge order is given, that is all that the unit can do, and cannot revert to any other type of movement or action and follows the rules stated for "Failed Charge." Is this correct? And for the models that successfully preformed the charge, are they still allowed their action even if others in the unit failed theirs?

Models who receive a charge order either select something to charge (and maybe fail) or they can run. A charge is successful as long as you make it into combat. If you don't think you can make it, you can opt to have a model run instead.

citadel wrote:
... So, a Slayer can purchase additional attacks because Combo-Strike is a *Attack, but WWitch Denegra cannot purchase additional attacks after using Seduction (*Action) because there is no attack element to the action, thus ending her combat-action. However, she can cast spells before and after. Correct?

Exactly.

citadel wrote:
Also, can models with *Attack-Thresher use the skill after a charge, and all the targets suffer the boosted damage considering it is a single attack that hits multiple targets?

While the Thresher is a single attack, only the first damage roll is automatcially boosted on a charge. But since Thresher is attached to a melee weapon, you can charge with it just fine, and you can buy additional melee attacks to mop-up who's left.

citadel wrote:
Lastly, regarding "Additional Attacks," they seem to only be applicable to warcasters/locks and jacks/beasts. As such, a model such as Bane Lord Tartarus make his *Attack Thresher, but cannot make additional attacks from the front of the card because it cannot use focus to purchase them, correct? ...

Normally this is the case, yes. Unless a model has special rules to let them buy additional attacks somehow, they get their normal combat action and that's it.

citadel wrote:
... Or are additional attacks more general, and always allowed at the end of a combat action? Pg 75 defines additional attack through focus, but 48 seems to imply that it is for everyone. - Nevermind on this one, the QSGuide says more succinctly that additional attacks are obtainable through spending focus.

The general rule is that warcasters, warlocks, warjacks, and warbeasts can buy additional attacks through the normal means. In order to get additional attacks, models have to have special rules to do so, such as the Long Gunners Double-Tap rule, models that have rules to gain and spend additional tokens like the Lord of the Feast, and so on. These models will say what and how they can do their attacks on their cards.

And stuff.
   
 
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