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Heya, I'm relatively new to Infinity and I have a question regarding Close Combat.

A and B are two Zhanshis, and C is a Daturazi.

A BC

If C starts his turn with a CC attack order, does the following happen?

1.A gets an ARO, he shoots into combat with a -6 modifier, correct?
2.C has Martial Arts L4, which includes L3, correct?
3.If C is assumed to have Martial Arts L3, he strikes first. Does this mean the only ARO B can take is to hit back with a normal roll if he survives? Can he dodge? If so, how?
4.If C kills B, can his second short order be to move into base contact with A, thus causing A to make his Charge reaction, potentially causing C to kill A as well at the cost of one order? (As in, C attacks B as the first part of his order, kills B, and then moves into A. A decides to flee and fails the face-to-face roll, causing him to roll ARM and failing.)

I would really appreciate any and all help. Thank ya.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. He can dodge along with any other legal skill which would be normal rolls
4. If C kills B then yes his second skill can be to move into b2b with A. A will already have declared his ARO though so if he chose to dodge would be normal. If he chose to shoot I believe he could then choose to shoot C in his open move towards him. There would be no CC possible with A as C would have already completed two skills and his order.

1. Yes, but if he rolls within that "failure category" of 6, he hits B instead of C.

2. Yes.

3: B can declare a dodge, but this will still be a normal roll and will not be an FtF with C. It only offers him the chance to disengage from close combat (after C has had his attack) and separate himself a millimetre from C (no other movement)

4: No in several respects. You may only end a close combat by disengaging or having no active opponents. C cannot disengage (this takes a dodge, and he has already used one skill this order, the CC attack), and dice are only rolled after all skills in the order are declared and wounds only applied after the end of the order (hence B is only incapacitated post order, so C has not yet incapacitated him and ended the melee).

Secondly, a charge into close combat does not grant you an attack. It just moves you into close combat, the attack needs a separate skill spent on it. (Hence a Move+Move into close combat offers your opponent a free swing, as you can't attack this order).

Zakriv wrote:
Heya, I'm relatively new to Infinity and I have a question regarding Close Combat.

A and B are two Zhanshis, and C is a Daturazi.

A BC

If C starts his turn with a CC attack order, does the following happen?

1.A gets an ARO, he shoots into combat with a -6 modifier, correct?
2.C has Martial Arts L4, which includes L3, correct?
3.If C is assumed to have Martial Arts L3, he strikes first. Does this mean the only ARO B can take is to hit back with a normal roll if he survives? Can he dodge? If so, how?
4.If C kills B, can his second short order be to move into base contact with A, thus causing A to make his Charge reaction, potentially causing C to kill A as well at the cost of one order? (As in, C attacks B as the first part of his order, kills B, and then moves into A. A decides to flee and fails the face-to-face roll, causing him to roll ARM and failing.)

I would really appreciate any and all help. Thank ya.

1. Yes, correct.
2. Yes, levelled skills include all lower levels.
3. You can declare ANY legal ARO to the CC, but due to the advantage of MA L3, you will only be allowed to do it IF you survive the attack. This roll will not be f2f, it will be a normal roll.

4. This is a complicated set of actions. Yes, he could move into B2B with A - if the movement was declared (remember ALL actions/skills and AROs are declared BEFORE any dice are rolled.) So if C's order was "attack B in CC, move towards A, B was "if I survive, I do X" and C was "shoot at C (with -6)". If C kills B with his action AND A fails to KO C with his shot (It's possible to engage in CC with someone, kill them and still fall down dead from a shot fired into the melee b a third party but C's corpse would still make it to B2b with A). Charge, however, is JUST the move into b2b and does NOT include an attack. All parts of that order/aro having been spent nothing more would happen.
No blows would be swung until a new order was spent on that combat. Then, C would still get first strike against A's ARO anyway due to MA l3.

Thanks very much everyone, this really helped me understand things.

Thanks again!

This is something I hope they clear up a bit in N3. CC in Infinity, while not the focus of the game and shouldn't be the focus of the game, can definitely use some cleaning up.

Huh this has kinda got a confusing with a difference of opinions/interpretations perhaps.

Your basic order can only consist of either move+move or move+short or a long skill. With dodge being a short skill, along with attack you couldn't do both in one order. So in the case of situation 4, you start the order already in CC. You could dodge out of CC or you could make a CC attack, but not both as they're both short skills. Additionally you cant do a move+CC attack as for that one order you are counted as locked in CC for the whole duration of it, so that attempted move would have to be a dodge... which conflicts as before. So in this case if you start an order in CC already, you can either dodge out of it, or do a CC attack and still be in the same place at the end. This at least is how I've done it.

And I'm not sure about dodging into CC though. I know that in the FAQ it mentions you can do it in ARO. But then you need another ARO to actually be able to make a CC attack. However in the active turn, there isn't anything that explicitly mentions dodging into CC. But I dont see why you would want to, sure you could pass the dodge but then you have to spend another order to actually do a CC attack. And in general you're better off shooting in infinity... the situation could arise I guess...

Actually thinking about it, ignore that last bit. I could imagine if you're a pupnik and charging into CC, then get ARO'd by the charged along with a couple others, a FTF with everyone on PH19 could be preferable to allowing those others a normal roll with the BS modifier. And being a pupnik you have no BS options.

That's not true, If you are in CC at the start of you're order you can declare CC+move if you like. This is resultant on the opponent being eliminated otherwise the second short skill is wasted as you would still be locked in CC.

Dodging into CC in your active turn is not possible as dodging gives you no movement in the active turn.

Hmm I guess that would make sense, we'd just done it that you couldn't as if you failed your CC, then you couldn't move so declaring an order of CC and move seemed odd to us. But in saying that we do do dodge+move out of CC and if the dodge roll fails we just treat it as the order not being able to be completed. Like doing discover and shoot, if you fail the discover then, no shot. So now considering that we do those, but not CC and move, that seems strange I guess we'll probably do it different now. With regards to dodging into CC, I meant you move into CC and dodge on they way, so like a dodging charge. Not like doing a discover on whatever and then dodging 2" into it.

CC+move is much like discover+shoot, declared but dependant on success.

You could Move+dodge into close combat but it's a weird situation where I'm not sure why you would at all. If you wanted to avoid their attack why move there at all?

Agreed, I was a bit of a fob before

And yeah I've never had a situation remotely close to it. The closest one I could come up with are if you have multiple AROs coming in from that charge and you want to FTF all of them as you have high PH (like pupniks). But still kinda weird. The only guy I've ever chucked into CC is McMurrough, but more often than not his chain rifles are better. Its a rare thing.

Okay so after looking into this, now a question of my owns arisen. Its with regards to disengaging from CC in the wiki. It states the model can complete its second short skill after a successful dodge out. Is this a typo as I had thought you could only do a short movement skill, or can you dodge out off CC and then shoot as this possibly suggests? Seems a bit off to me.

bobman wrote:
That's not true, If you are in CC at the start of you're order you can declare CC+move if you like. This is resultant on the opponent being eliminated otherwise the second short skill is wasted as you would still be locked in CC.

Dodging into CC in your active turn is not possible as dodging gives you no movement in the active turn.

Not quite. Dodge-Move gives you an exception to disengage and then declare a short move. Otherwise you're in CC and cannot declare a move skill.

I'm not sure I follow that dodge+move is different to CC+move tbh. They are both dependant on a success and if move is not a valid skill due to being in CC then it cannot be declared at all surely?

I see where if you want to disengage from combat you need a dodge and then are allowed a second short skill and where the only ARO in CC are dodge or CC but not where an active CC skill cancels the second short skill.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong but can you point me to the part in the book for future reference?

Being in CC cancels all movement. The rules for disengaging from CC via Dodge override this because they say you can move afterwards.

Fair enough. That part reads to me like it refers to the charge.

Edit: another thorn in the side of CC. Certainly feels like a move after CC is finished should be ok. There are plenty of instances that are similar, such as the discover+shoot already mentioned.

Yeah, I played it that way to begin with and then someone pointed out it was wrong.

Discover-Shoot is another exception to only declaring 'possible' skills, it's only possible because of the FAQ entry.

I do hate the few remaining 'conditional' skills. :(

bobman wrote:
CC+move is much like discover+shoot, declared but dependant on success.

You could Move+dodge into close combat but it's a weird situation where I'm not sure why you would at all. If you wanted to avoid their attack why move there at all?

In those situations where you have killed your opponent's Lt. You want BtB but no CC for the rest of your turn, so that your opponent starts his turn in LoL and has to reserve one of his 2 orders for CC. He cannot nominate a new Lt, since he has only one order free. Effectively it will cost your opponent 2 turns, not one.

Evil man. I can almost hear you going mwahahah from here! :-P

Well... An odd turn. Anyway what about that dodge+short skill thing. Is that only a short movement skill as I thought or is it just a general short skill like it says in the wiki. So you could in theory dodge out of cc then shoot?

There are three main types of action in Infinity:

Long skills take up the entire order so can't be combined with anything else.
Short move skills can be combined with other short move skills and other short skills.
Short (non-move) skills cannot be combined with each other, only with short move skills.

So you can move-move, move-shoot but not shoot-shoot.

Dodge is a short skill rather than a short move skill, so it can't be combined with shooting.

What complicates things is that in reaction you need to successfully Dodge to be able to move in reaction...

Yeah, but taking it word for word from the wiki it suggests you could do a second short skill, not specifically a move one. I'd thought it was a move one but after reading that and not having the rulebook on hand thought I may of missed something.