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Am i the only one that feels a bit offset by the mindset of some of the older 40k players? I feel like they point fingers at the younger generation of players as if its our fault that things have changed in 40k and that GW does things they dont like. I mean yeah ok i get it, the game is fun, but i cant stand comments like "these new players they dint get it. I remember when X unit was X dollars and we didnt have running or flyers" (like 4th ed i think) like its our fault we were too young or didnt have enough money to play such a game. We have valid opinions about the game as well and enjoy it as well. I was 22 when i started playing at my FLGS it was months before the older crowd would let me get a game in. And the internet crowd doesnt seem much better. Thankfully a couple guys my age 24-30 started playing so we could build a bigger community. But it seems like a popular thing to blame the younger gamers for the unwanted changes in 40k.

Personally, I've only ever really seen people blaming GW for GW's actions. I've not come across people blaming younger players for influencing GW.


If anything, it's the older players (those who can afford the hobby) who have more of an influence.

Only time I've seen the younger players mentioned in a bad light is when one is that hyperactive uncontrolled kid type.

Can't say GW ignores players and then also blame the players for how it's gone.

I don't think it's really about blaming younger players.
I think it's mostly more about there being (coincidentially) more posted examples of immature actions being done by younger players. Yes, I know there are many younger players that are quite mature. Believe me, many older players can do this too.

Personally, I really don't mind younger players as long as they're mature. They give a new perspective on the game.

In all fairness these comments dont apply to ALL older players. That mightve come across as a generalization. Which i didnt intend.

I would play with players of any age. As long as they are friendly and great fun to play with. Must be open and also, not Waac, would be good

So ignore the random comments about younger players. I believe it's probably a misinformed minority.

I think there are a fair few older players who are really bored of 40K and want something different; however instead of choosing a new hobby or trying one of the many new and different games on the market (heck even ones like historical re-enactment) they instead rage that GW is doing "the wrong thing". They also look for blame targets.

There isn't much logic behind it other than those people have changed or simply had too much of a good thing and gotten bored; but refuse to admit that to themselves and try something fresh.


You see it all the time and its generally not worth worrying about (esp since most are just venting online about it randomly and not really putting too much thought behind their minds other than the insane "if people stopped buying GW models GW would have to listen to ME to solve their problems").


In my experiences most complaints tend to be along the lines of:

1) It's that one hyper kid who's just nuts and hard to socialise and play with - that kid might also be destructive or not very gentle whilst also having no respect about touching other peoples models.

2) Generation gap - like it or not its there and when you start having 10 - 20 - 30 year generation gaps sometimes people just feel out of place.

3) When you've 2 or 3 "old" guys and "20 or 30" young guys the old guys can sometimes feel a bit pushed out of the local club; not that the youthful ones have pushed them out; its just a mix of hteir own generation dwindling in numbers coupled with generation gap (what the heck is this yugio stuff and why are people playing it not warhammer and magic the gathering)


Most of the time, like in most hobbies, the hobby itself bridges the gap between generations, social and sexual groups and allows for a good middle ground. It won't bridge all gaps and differences and sometimes people get a little overly obsessed about those differences; but in general most get along so long as people are respectful of each other.

I agree. Ill admit the overly competitive people kill it for the casual gamers. No matter what age.

Although i find myself being more competitive in the apoc setting sure no one likes losing but you cant always win.

 Sour Note wrote:
Am i the only one that feels a bit offset by the mindset of some of the older 40k players? I feel like they point fingers at the younger generation of players as if its our fault that things have changed in 40k and that GW does things they dont like. I mean yeah ok i get it, the game is fun, but i cant stand comments like "these new players they dint get it. I remember when X unit was X dollars and we didnt have running or flyers" (like 4th ed i think) like its our fault we were too young or didnt have enough money to play such a game. We have valid opinions about the game as well and enjoy it as well. I was 22 when i started playing at my FLGS it was months before the older crowd would let me get a game in. And the internet crowd doesnt seem much better. Thankfully a couple guys my age 24-30 started playing so we could build a bigger community. But it seems like a popular thing to blame the younger gamers for the unwanted changes in 40k.

I think it could just be your area. I dont think youth has played a factor much in MY discussions. when I think of Hobbyists, i think of them in terms of their experience in the given game we're playing. So if someone new to the hobby comes along, we all kinda know the rules.

1. Let them win
2. Let them win
3. Teach them as much as they are willing to listen about the Social contract so they don't become Stel...uh... Like certain burn out online personalities.
4. Then crush them so they know their place once they can defend themselves.

Lol.

But here's the thing about people whove been through the editions: they're not ACTUALLY wrong in their observations. This hobby got EXPENSIVE and it did it in an aweful hurry. It got flooded with new rules and in an even BIGGER hurry and it turned itself from a game in 3rd, 4th and 5th editions tyhat was evolving into a more and more complete rule set for competitive gaming to a sudden EXTREME shift towards "pump and dump" where you drop debt, pump sales figures and prepare to sell the company. That sudden shift is raising older eyebrows and what they are probably hoping from you the newer player is that you will join them in their purchasing rebellion, embrace Ebay and start showing the big Megacorp whose boss.

Its a complete waste of everyone's time, but thats what they want. And newer players who love this hobby for the EXACT same reasons the older players did when they first saw it are simply blythe tothe history and dont care... Which is where the older players need to get to. they need to accept the new realitty, fall in love with EBay and enjoy the GAME insrtead of being such an expert on what GW is doing. =)

As an older player (early 40s), I have never thought this but I have witnessed something like it exactly once. One day a couple of 60+ guys were complaining about those "40k kids" taking over the tables at the shop.

I thought that was incredibly funny because by "kids" they meant anyone under 50...

I'm making the transition from young to old myself, and if I had to guess what's going on, I'd say it boils down to two main things. Generally, the younger you are...

1.) ... the dumber you are. What seems convincing to someone who doesn't know any better will seem like nonsense to those who do. Of course, a lot of older people will tend to rely on subjective experience to make their case, but that's better than nothing, which is usually what they're arguing against.

2.) ... the more you whine. The younger you are, the more that unfairness and injustice are self-evident, and all that you need to do is to make people aware of the problems, and that will be enough to start setting things right. The older you get, though (especially once you've had kids), the shorter and shorter of patience you get for what is, in fact, just whining. Complaining just makes things worse for everyone, so either shut up or offer some real, helpful solutions, so the feeling goes.

Anyways, once you combine these two, you get to what you were saying...

Sour Note wrote:"these new players they dint get it. I remember when X unit was X dollars and we didnt have running or flyers"

However sloppy and misguided this is, it's a natural flinch reaction to the above. Person A is complaining about something. Whine, whine, aren't things awful, woe is me, aren't you impressed that I'm smart enough to figure out what's wrong? Person B, who has no interest in person A's useless complaints moves to dismiss them so that they can get back to enjoying themselves. When all they need is a single anecdote to whisk away person A's faulty reasoning, they'll just throw down a "Well, in MY day..." and be done with it.

The young person may feel hurt that their well-reasoned argument against injustice is being callously ignored, while the old person is happy that the young person's pointless whining has finally stopped.

Now, of course, that creates problems with...

Sour Note wrote:We have valid opinions about the game as well and enjoy it as well.

Which is, of course, the opposite of the point of view of the people that you're complaining about in the first place. My guess is that they don't see the validity that you do. Not that you don't, of course, but once again, the trend with youth is towards ignorance and poor reasoning skills (why car insurance costs more for them, for one of many examples).

And of course you can enjoy the game. I'd take a step back, though, and increase your scope. Look at other player's enjoyment as well. If someone is showing up to get some time away from the wife and the kids so that he can make pew pew noises with his miniatures, do you think he wants to spend his time listening to to someone bitching and moaning about how GW nerfed their favorite unit and game imbalance is ruining everything for everyone?

Of course not. They're there to play with friends, not to join some (self)righteous crusade.

Now, all that said, there is another side to the story. That is, those people who have gotten older, but haven't grown up, and not in a good way. People who are still just as dumb and whiney, just closer to their first social security check

In this case, of course, it is possible to have a more mature person who is younger, getting irritated about the immaturity of people older than them. In this case, though, it's not a problem of "old vs. young", it's a problem of "mature vs. immature" that's getting skewed by your particular circumstances so that the latter appears to be the former.

In that case, you're going to want to avoid old, immature people, in the same way that older people avoid immature youths, and largely for the same reasons.

As for what to do about them, unfortunately there isn't really a solution. Those who are well-meaning will work to improve themselves, at your behest or no, while those who are set in their ways are going to be set in their ways, likely until the day they die or some major trauma happens to make them reconsider their lives.

Otherwise, the only thing you can really do is try your best to ignore them, and gently help push them out of the group so that at least you don't have to listen to them anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm making the transition from young to old myself, and if I had to guess what's going on, I'd say it boils down to two main things. Generally, the younger you are...

1.) ... the dumber you are. What seems convincing to someone who doesn't know any better will seem like nonsense to those who do. Of course, a lot of older people will tend to rely on subjective experience to make their case, but that's better than nothing, which is usually what they're arguing against.

2.) ... the more you whine. The younger you are, the more that unfairness and injustice are self-evident, and all that you need to do is to make people aware of the problems, and that will be enough to start setting things right. The older you get, though (especially once you've had kids), the shorter and shorter of patience you get for what is, in fact, just whining. Complaining just makes things worse for everyone, so either shut up or offer some real, helpful solutions, so the feeling goes.

Anyways, once you combine these two, you get to what you were saying...

Sour Note wrote:"these new players they dint get it. I remember when X unit was X dollars and we didnt have running or flyers"

However sloppy and misguided this is, it's a natural flinch reaction to the above. Person A is complaining about something. Whine, whine, aren't things awful, woe is me, aren't you impressed that I'm smart enough to figure out what's wrong? Person B, who has no interest in person A's useless complaints moves to dismiss them so that they can get back to enjoying themselves. When all they need is a single anecdote to whisk away person A's faulty reasoning, they'll just throw down a "Well, in MY day..." and be done with it.

The young person may feel hurt that their well-reasoned argument against injustice is being callously ignored, while the old person is happy that the young person's pointless whining has finally stopped.

Now, of course, that creates problems with...

Sour Note wrote:We have valid opinions about the game as well and enjoy it as well.

Which is, of course, the opposite of the point of view of the people that you're complaining about in the first place. My guess is that they don't see the validity that you do. Not that you don't, of course, but once again, the trend with youth is towards ignorance and poor reasoning skills (why car insurance costs more for them, for one of many examples).

And of course you can enjoy the game. I'd take a step back, though, and increase your scope. Look at other player's enjoyment as well. If someone is showing up to get some time away from the wife and the kids so that he can make pew pew noises with his miniatures, do you think he wants to spend his time listening to to someone bitching and moaning about how GW nerfed their favorite unit and game imbalance is ruining everything for everyone?

Of course not. They're there to play with friends, not to join some (self)righteous crusade.

Now, all that said, there is another side to the story. That is, those people who have gotten older, but haven't grown up, and not in a good way. People who are still just as dumb and whiney, just closer to their first social security check

In this case, of course, it is possible to have a more mature person who is younger, getting irritated about the immaturity of people older than them. In this case, though, it's not a problem of "old vs. young", it's a problem of "mature vs. immature" that's getting skewed by your particular circumstances so that the latter appears to be the former.

In that case, you're going to want to avoid old, immature people, in the same way that older people avoid immature youths, and largely for the same reasons.

As for what to do about them, unfortunately there isn't really a solution. Those who are well-meaning will work to improve themselves, at your behest or no, while those who are set in their ways are going to be set in their ways, likely until the day they die or some major trauma happens to make them reconsider their lives.

Otherwise, the only thing you can really do is try your best to ignore them, and gently help push them out of the group so that at least you don't have to listen to them anymore.

You kind of just lumped me into a group didnt you? You dont know me friend. Dont assign me labels
Youth is foolish but dont add those labels to me.
I understand you.but ive never instigated any arguments or complaints. In fact i bought 2 armies entirely off ebay. I dont bitch anout gw prices because i dont deal with them. Not every older player is a saint like you paint them out to be. Some treat us newcomers like morons because of thier experience. My insurance is stellar btw. So id appreciate you keep your generalizations to yourself.
I have a wife and daughter. You might think because your older you know everything and you deserve some special recognition but guess what?
Some of us are combat vets/ still serving. We have very stressful lives. This may be your escape from your whiny kids or your wife who nags or whatever "stress" you have. but its a fun way to socialize for us as well without the hostile elitist attitude you just showed its an easy and engaging experience. And many of us are willing to listen and watch and learn in order to become proficient. One of my mentors is a 40 years old player. Patient and smart. But not everyone is like that.
"Theyre young and dumb" im open to ideas and opinions but i dont berate or take away merit from people based on age. I would rather judge them based on thier character.
Just i dont say "stupid geezers and theyre antiquated ways" i expect the same respect i extens to others.

Sour Note wrote:Dont assign me labels

Heh, it would be somewhat more difficult if you didn't say things (like the above) that made it so easy to label you.

Sour Note wrote: ive never instigated any arguments or complaints

This entire thread is a complaint against old people, and you're arguing right now.

Sour Note wrote:Not every older player is a saint like you paint them out to be

I didn't say they were.

Sour Note wrote: You might think because your older you know everything and you deserve some special recognition

I don't.

I don't propagate logical fallacies, including arguments from authority. The question is why are you?

Sour Note wrote:"Theyre young and dumb" im open to ideas and opinions but i dont berate or take away merit from people based on age

It's why I said "tends to" rather than "is gospel truth".

Being young doesn't make a person any more dumb, but it doesn't make them any less so either. Merit is given where it's due - just being young doesn't mean a person gets extra slack, no more than if they are any other age.

Sour Note wrote:i expect the same respect i extens to others

Then what's the problem? You're getting what you're giving.

I never said anyone that is old is dumd which you actually said. You said young people are dumber and whinier.i also clarified that not all older players are. Im sorry if that rustled your feathers apparently. But i never attacked you directly and if i did it must apply to you, no?

I asked a question i did not complain.

I can complain if you want me to.
But no one asked you to be here. If you disagree with me so much why dont you simply see your way out?


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I never asked for slack. Which is what you dont see i just asked to be treated the same as your buddy buddies which you so hastily champion while attacking me for my opinion. No one asked you to put your two cents in did they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I gave respect i never in my opening trash talked anyone as you have done to me i merely exposed something i found offensive.


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Maybe you ahould learn to abalyze what you read before you open your mouth, ey?

Sour Note wrote: i did not complain.

Really...

Sour Note wrote:Maybe you ahould learn to abalyze what you read before you open your mouth, ey?

Sour Note wrote:I gave respect i never in my opening trash talked anyone as you have

Sour Note wrote:But no one asked you to be here

Sour Note wrote:So id appreciate you keep your generalizations to yourself.

Sour Note wrote:You might think because your older you know everything and you deserve some special recognition but guess what?

Sour Note wrote: without the hostile elitist attitude you just showed

Sour Note wrote: Ill admit the overly competitive people kill it for the casual gamers

Sour Note wrote:I feel like they point fingers at the younger generation of players as if its our fault

Sour Note wrote: like its our fault we were too young or didnt have enough money to play such a game

Sour Note wrote:Am i the only one that feels a bit offset by the mindset of some of the older 40k players?

So, someone comes along and does nothing more but whine about people getting upset about whining, and then gets upset when someone calls them out for whining?

Hmm, what ever could I do about this?

Ailaros wrote:As for what to do about them, unfortunately there isn't really a solution. Those who are well-meaning will work to improve themselves, at your behest or no, while those who are set in their ways are going to be set in their ways, likely until the day they die or some major trauma happens to make them reconsider their lives.

Otherwise, the only thing you can really do is try your best to ignore them, and gently help push them out of the group so that at least you don't have to listen to them anymore.

That's good advice.

Guess it's time to make use of the ignore button.

Well although massive generalizations without even remote anecdotal support for the assertion being made is par for the course in this thread, I will simply share my perspective.

I would use the now closed down local gw as an example. The local GW "back in the day" would run events, often involving playing 40k. They required models to be painted, so the younger gamers had to start slow and build up an army (remember those things?) painting unit after unit as they acquired them. There was a culture, there was some semblance of decorum and order. Eventually, once a kid would get enough points (1000+) older gamers would generally play them, some were brats, some were fine. The brats took longer to acclimate but if they stuck with it, eventually they'd be able to field a decent sized army (1500+) and before you know it, over time the young dudes became vets themselves playing armies they had painted and built up over the years they had been playing at games workshop. Knowledge of the rules and a disposition that wasn't overly vexing was generally enough to get in some pickup games (this of course was back when pickup games were possible). The culture was a bit tighter back then, that doesn't mean everyone was a power gamer or competitive, it also doesn't mean people weren't using adjectives to describe what kind of gamer they or others were. What army someone chose back then said a lot about them, in fact a codex defined players, you would say "oh yeah tony, he's a cool chaos player, oh ya bill, he's been playin orks since birth".

At some point GW stopped requiring painted miniatures, that I feel is where things started to go downhill. There wasn't a methodical pace to entry, anyone with a rich mommy or daddy could slap some half built plastic and metal down and go to town. Instead of running 40k events, the staff just ran apoc, because, ya know, it involved literally doing nothing but delineating a board in two and telling whoever showed up to put there models down and pew pew. The younger crowd ate that gak up, you didn't have to know anything, rules-wise or fluff wise, just bring your toys. Some of the vest tried to make the best of it, "look on the bright side, I guess I finally get to use my warhound". Some of the vets gave apoc an honest try and it was ok, some things were difficult to square (flank march) but ultimately it was easier to just bring a normal army on thursday nights and play 40k. It was a bit annoying when the youngin's would use valuable table space to play gi joe on, but it kept them 4 to a table so it sorta worked out. We were lucky to have a good number of tables.

The difference was, the young ones instead of wanting to learn what the vets were playing, were perfectly content with playing "apoc" or whatever they called it. In truth it wasn't even really apoc, In any case, this only got worse as time went on and when 6th hit the division between young and old only grew. But that was ok because GW in their infinite wisdom decided to go to a one woman store so really any culture or community was pretty much stamped out and now it's a bunch of vets playing in various basements. We stil lhave armies, they apparently have "collections".

@Ailaros:
One day, years from now, sour note might possibly come back across your post and finally grok the meaning of the words.

There is hope for the "younger" generation...I think. lol

I'm an older player and I remember when we DID have RUNNING AND fliers and other stuff that was brought BACK in with 6th ed.

Those two weren't EXCLUSIVE to 6th ed. We had running rules back in 2nd ed.
We had FLIERS back in RT.

We even had RULES for making stonking huge vehicles and using them in both RT AND 3rd ed (the VDR for 3rd ed) without resorting to apoc silliness.

I don't blame the younger gamers for any of this. I blame the ivory tower oxygen thieves at Nottingham,

 chromedog wrote:
I don't blame the younger gamers for any of this. I blame the ivory tower oxygen thieves at Nottingham,

I blame GW as well, but that makes us whiners

So, when we see a problem it's either the young people's fault, (a criticism I haven't actually heard yet) or its GW's fault and in that case we're hater McHaterson whinners.

What do you call someone with legitimate criticisms of the game and/or its company?

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, when we see a problem it's either the young people's fault, (a criticism I haven't actually heard yet) or its GW's fault and in that case we're hater McHaterson whinners.

Yeah no point blaming young players, they'll take the path of least resistance everytime if nothing incentivizes them otherwise. I can lament that painting is a rare value but that's mostly because there isn't much incentive without painting standards. I get that it's a game first and a hobby second for a lot of players, young and old. What I can say is a lot of the younger and or newer players I've encountered do seem to think the vets are just "whining".






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 MWHistorian wrote:
What do you call someone with legitimate criticisms of the game and/or its company?

A consumer.

Lets not start Ailaros off guys, after all we here to talk about why situation X is happening, Ailaros just likes to attack and label people as "whiners" when they just ask about small questions and/or advice or want to discuss a social topic

Anyway back to topic, to the OP I know what you talking about, as it was one of the reasons why I don't play at GW's anymore.

When I started in 2007 I remember finishing the beginners course and I remember two guys standing in the room playing a game in the corner slagging off the younger players and it did discourage me a bit to go back and play, but then I went to an FLGS and it did have a lot of older players (by that I mean I was 12 and they were around 20-40 years of age) but they were more supportive and even better I was exposed multiple game systems and not just GW so I suppose it went for the better

My advice would be just to ignore them, or if they are too vocal, just tell them to quit it and say your not complaining in public about old crotchety men yelling "Get off mah lawn"..

Generally gets them to shut up

Hope this helps somehow