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Hey there guys. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm going to go ahead anyway.

Played Vs Dwarfs yesterday with my WoC (2400pts). Great, fun game, I thought I had played tactically sound, outflanked the shooting units (wiping out one of the two), taken out a war-machine, ground down Irondrakes to nothing. I thought I was in the position of a resounding victory.... Until...

We started calculating victory points, and it was a tie game (a difference of ~90pts). I wondered how this could be, my opponent only had 25% of a unit of crossbowmen, an organ gun and his hammerers. Whereas I had a hero on disc, my Juggernauts, a unit of warriors, a sorcerer lord and a mounted sorc. And then I saw the total points cost of his hammerer unit. ~ 24 hammerers, with lord, with BSB. Basically, I couldn't win unless I had killed that unit.

The victory point condition in the BRB (with the updated little note you get in Island of Blood) says you need to score 100 points more. Sounds easy, but not when 600-700 points of an army is tied up in a single unit (and Hammerers are surprisingly hard to shift now, even for WoC). So I'm forced to ask, why would someone who plays an "elite" or equivalent force, whose individual points cost per model averages >=10 per model, not tie up as many points as possible in a single unit that is notoriously hard to shift? (Phoenix Guard, Chaos Warriors, Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Black Guard, etc) Say for me, 600 pts of Warriors. That gives me a nice 600 pts buffer against losing in almost every game. And that's not even including Lords and Heroes in that unit (In total, that's roughly 1100 pts with a Sorc Lord and a Hero Sorc). So the game becomes, kill that "star" to win.

Maybe I'm over-reacting, maybe my opponent wasn't forthcoming with the points per unit he had left (he hates losing, especially to WoC, even more-so to a newbie like me). But because of the big hammer-"star" unit he had sitting there, it felt like my tactics were pointless in the end, I should have just charged up the middle, taken the shooting losses, beaten the -one- unit into oblivion and that would be game over.
It's fairly frustrating to (in my mind) to play tactically well against an army that's a bad match-up, have the upper hand the entire game, only for a draw because 50% (or more) of an army is tied up in one unit.

Sorry for the rant, but it was fairly frustrating to go through all that work for a draw ><

Izzy

Well, the thing is that you probably did not have the upper hand at all, and outmanoeuvering stunties isn't exactly a challenge

That said, it's common to face that kind of builds and you'll get used to face them
A simple solution is to have enough nasty warmachines / big spells or such to take care of such blocks
Your opponents won't be so eager to use deathstars if Dwellers or Final Trans are flying around (that opens up another can of worms though)

Except even the 6th level spells can't deal with true death stars. Okay so I might louse half of my unit, and in the bigger tournaments they are starting to allow a ward save, so say hello to MR3 units all over the place making big units almost unkillable.

Magic Resistance does not help against the 'Big 6th' spells. If a spell removes models without allowing saves, you cannot use Magic Resistance to improve your non-existent Ward.
EDIT: Just re-read that and some tourneys allow it. This seems very disingenuous to me and only further encourages Hordehammer. They exist because it makes Hordes have a legitimate weakness to exploit...

Deathstars have counters. The Big Spells are the obvious best-way to go about doing it, scything out anywhere between 16 and 83% of the unit every time one is cast. It gets even better if you can stack spells to punish whatever stat the Big Spells punishes (Enfeeble + Dwellers, Miasma + Pit). People who complain the loudest about the Big Spells tend to be the same who field big blocks of slow infantry and don't seem to appreciate that they are using the scissors to their deathstar's paper.

Outside of that, Panic normally works a treat. Doom & Darkness coupled with a Hellcannon is fantastic when it works, especially getting Treason in there as well. You could alternatively go for killing a smaller unit nearby and triggering a Panic that way.

Most of the anti-Deathstar solutions are based on Magic which is fickle, and so they are hardly reliable. On the upside, when they work it is going to cost the opponent hundreds, if not thousands, of points and so you'd expect them to be unreliable.

Just a final note, don't try and match Hammerers in close combat unless you have a serious advantage in Magic Hexes and Augments to swing it. They might be short, but they're WS5, S6, A2 Stubborn dudes who often have Hatred and are cheaper than you are.

Quick question because I'm unclear.

The lord and BSB went in with the hammerers, but were they alive at the end?

 streamdragon wrote:
Quick question because I'm unclear.

The lord and BSB went in with the hammerers, but were they alive at the end?

Yes, at the end they were.

It's not like my opponent purposely made his hammerers cost 700-1000 points, I played his Dwarfs a while back in 7th ed and he's always ran them like that. It was just when we were calculating VP we realized how much of a buffer these types of units give you.
And lets be honest, its not like I'm gonna kill enough crossing the board in 2 turns with WoC. Yes, Lore of Metal could work well, yes Hellcannons help. But I've found magic unreliable and Hellcannons are more effective in twos; I already run 4 Skullcrushers at 2400pts, so I could only take 1.

It's not a unique issue I have facing dwarfs. I have the same issue facing empire hordes. Yeah, I'll win combat 9/10, but steadfast with average Ld is still hard to break, and at best I'll sit there for 2 turns pasting worthless peons, and at worse, bad dice rolling ensues, so I'm the one losing combat. I have a suspicion my opponents have better-then-average luck when rolling Ld tests (in the past 2 weeks I've played 4 games, 3 v empire, 1 v dwarfs, and I've broken a total of 3 units. Quarrellers, Empire Knights and Demigryffons). I just find it frustrating that peons like Empire halberds can be losing combat of upwards of 8+ a turn, their comrades are nothing more then red smears, and they still hold like disciplined Knights.

I've put alot of this down to being relatively new to the game , I'm still learning alot and the 2 guys I play against are veterans (10+ years I think..) but steadfast still seems a bit broken to me.

Thanks for helpful replies as always guys

Steadfast is broken indeed
Just like Skullcrushers or Nurgle-halberd Warriors are
The gap in hitting power between low-tier and elite units grew so much that without a mechanism like Steadfast, very killy units would be even better than what they already are
Facing steadfast blocks is frustrating, but for a lot of armies, it's the only thing that stand between your bloodthirsty warriors and a crushing defeat

It's easy to defend Steadfast as a Skaven player, as it's almost tailored to the Skaven army.

But really, without Steadfast the Skaven army would be little more than meat for the grinder. It's the foundation upon which any other conceivable strengths of the army are built.

TanKoL wrote:
Steadfast is broken indeed
Just like Skullcrushers or Nurgle-halberd Warriors are
The gap in hitting power between low-tier and elite units grew so much that without a mechanism like Steadfast, very killy units would be even better than what they already are
Facing steadfast blocks is frustrating, but for a lot of armies, it's the only thing that stand between your bloodthirsty warriors and a crushing defeat

Oh, I am fully aware that monstrous Calvary in general are broken. Not sure about Nurgle Warriors though, or warriors in general. 19pts for a nurgle warrior with halberd sounds fair to me considering, for example, elven elite units have a wealth more special rules, and are alot cheaper; 15pts per Phoenix guard I believe? 15 points for a 4+ ward, ASF, S4, 2A, extra supporting attacks, superior I and WS. All for 15 points? I think that's a wee bit more broken

I agree that steadfast helps stem the tide of elite-level units like WoC, Elvish Elites and the better heavy calvalry. But armies like Skaven, Empire, Elves etc also have access to shooting (of various effectiveness) to stem such a tide. Besides, steadfast by itself isn't completely broken, it's when the unit retains Steadfast from flank and rear attacks that it becomes silly in my mind.

And steadfast Skaven Slaves in units of 50+; as well as being able to shoot into slave combat, Has to be the most broken tactic I've heard of.

Yeah, I miss the half-victory points thing, and, on a slightly related note, I miss the Unit Strength mechanics as well. Otherwise I'd say 8th is a very strong edition.

Ignoring/Failing completely to destroy units is one of the difficult concepts a new player needs to grasp and, admittedly, it's one of the slip ups I often make, especially in a tense match where there are bigger threats to be considered. I lost 20-0 in a Swedish Comp match to a Bretonnian player who had around twelve models left on the board not long ago, because I'd failed to completely kill off units.

As an aside, Phoenix Guard only have 1 attack each.

But your main point stands. While Steadfast is necessary, disruption should negate it.

This is the most annoying thing in Warhammer. I get very annoyed when my wood elf opponent at the last turns of a game I was technically winning and rushes all his units as far away as possible. His units are worth a lot of points and all it takes for me not to get all the points is for one model to be alive at the end of the match.

I have lost a few games because he pulled out his pricey unit and I just couldnt quite kill it in time, making it nearly impossible to win.

I havent been playing for long, and im starting to make sure I hunt all his units down, but if I go to a tournament I know it will get worse. Its also something I cant bring myself to do. I have always battled to the end, even if the situation is grim. But there is little reward for that. Its better to just flee and survive if things start turning sour.

Its one of the few rules I hate in an otherwise pretty decent rule set.

A lot of tournaments (and friendly games) around here now apply some of the old rules for VPs
fleeing units give out 50% points
units below 25% strength give 50% VPs
fleeing units below 25% strength give 100% VPs
Or some variation of the above, makes for more interesting games overall

 Swastakowey wrote:
This is the most annoying thing in Warhammer. I get very annoyed when my wood elf opponent at the last turns of a game I was technically winning and rushes all his units as far away as possible. His units are worth a lot of points and all it takes for me not to get all the points is for one model to be alive at the end of the match.

I have lost a few games because he pulled out his pricey unit and I just couldnt quite kill it in time, making it nearly impossible to win.

I havent been playing for long, and im starting to make sure I hunt all his units down, but if I go to a tournament I know it will get worse. Its also something I cant bring myself to do. I have always battled to the end, even if the situation is grim. But there is little reward for that. Its better to just flee and survive if things start turning sour.

Its one of the few rules I hate in an otherwise pretty decent rule set.

Fantasy advanced tactics!

It is very annoying, but thats the game.

I wouldnt call it advanced, its not much different 40K really. Easy to pick up. But yes its part of the game, doesnt mean I have to like it lol.

I like what Tankol wrote and apparently those are older fantasy rules according to someone I know. Hopefully its in the next update.

until 8th Ed, any unit fleeing was destroyed at the end of the game
and any unit below 50% was granting half VPs too
VPs were in chunks of 100s though
unit/char worth 0-100 = 100 VP
unit/char worth 101-200 = 200 VP
and so on