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Is there a way to design a list around man-o-war bombards and win? I am a new player, was thinking of starting with Convergence, but saw man-o-war and fell in love. I am told they suck, but they can't be so bad as to guarantee a loss can they? Anyone has some strategies or list ideas to make this most wondrous model worth using on the table top?

They are way too expensive and way too slow. And, their armor isn't good enough. If you advance in shield wall, you'll only be handing your opponent early control of all scenario zones, flags, and objectives.

I was planning on using bombards for shooting primarily, not the shield variant... I know they are sub optimal, but I want to make them work. /tg/ gave me this advice:

They are tough do to being expensive for what they do, but, if you can give them support they can make some accomplishments. Vlad is a good caster due to signs and portents which helps the units average shooting skills considerably. Also, to increase the Bombardier's life span, mechaniks with the unit attachment (he wears MoW armour) lets them repair MoW units like warjacks, so you heal them up. Just be careful not to center all your points on this unit, or to make them THE focus of your lists. They can tear infantry up pretty good (especially with Signs and Portents) but Jacks, high DEF/ Armour infantry will be their biggest challenge. But that's just my experience with them. Take it with a grain of salt, and welcome to the mother land, brother.

I am hoping Vlad and a mechanik can help me make them more usable. Any ideas as to what to bring to flesh out the list? I would love to fit in some winter guard riflemen and a field gun or mortar.


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Also any strategies as to how to use them to take down better units?

Winterguard Riflemen with Joe and Signs and Portents will do a good job on high def/low arm infantry if you are having problems with them, while you can get the great bears/MOW Demo Corps to deal with high armour. Just the first two things that spring to mind.

 motyak wrote:
Winterguard Riflemen with Joe and Signs and Portents will do a good job on high def/low arm infantry if you are having problems with them, while you can get the great bears/MOW Demo Corps to deal with high armour. Just the first two things that spring to mind.

I am assuming field guns are much less effective than the fluff seems to think they are then, man-o-war demo corps seem like a good fix, but I am not as big a fan of them as I am the ma-o-war bombards.

I run MOW shocktroopers and love em. First turn they run, next walk and shieldwall. Cant beast 21 arm haha!!! They are quite useful against infantry, even some jacks. MAT 7 is pretty good. Don't underestimate them just because they are slow

Also, in shieldwall they can be moving an extra 2" if you bring the Iron Fang Kovnik along.

I have decided to team them up with a decimator for some anti high ARM. seems like an effective combo no?

Still wondering if the field gun is a good choice.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I have decided to team them up with a decimator for some anti high ARM. seems like an effective combo no?

Still wondering if the field gun is a good choice.

The Decimator is probably one of the worst warjacks in the game when all said and done, at least considering faction context. The field gun is probably one the worst artillery pieces in the game. The man-o-war bombadiers are pretty close to the bottom too.

At the end of the day, all these elements are going to be more of a liability than an asset given the opportunity cost of taking them. So long as you use them in a balanced non-spammy way with the right support elements you're certainly not in insta-lose territory, but you're certainly heavily handicapping yourself.

Man-o-Wars and Khador 'Jacks are for the most part, poor choices. They're not a good reason to buy into the faction at least from a game play perspective. This is probably the place where PP dropped the ball the most in designing the game. They gave the faction with the most imposing looking 'Jacks and Heavy infantry a design space that doesn't really want to use them all that much.

 Chongara wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I have decided to team them up with a decimator for some anti high ARM. seems like an effective combo no?

Still wondering if the field gun is a good choice.

The Decimator is probably one of the worst warjacks in the game when all said and done, at least considering faction context. The field gun is probably one the worst artillery pieces in the game. The man-o-war bombadiers are pretty close to the bottom too.

At the end of the day, all these elements are going to be more of a liability than an asset given the opportunity cost of taking them. So long as you use them in a balanced non-spammy way with the right support elements you're certainly not in insta-lose territory, but you're certainly heavily handicapping yourself.

Man-o-Wars and Khador 'Jacks are for the most part, poor choices. They're not a good reason to buy into the faction at least from a game play perspective. This is probably the place where PP dropped the ball the most in designing the game. They gave the faction with the most imposing looking 'Jacks and Heavy infantry a design space that doesn't really want to use them all that much.

I have been trying to work this out with /tg/ this is the list they suggested.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594463.page

I am looking for advice as to how to use these units if possible, but I am rather happy with the list at this point if only from an aesthetic point of view. Now I just have to make it work on the table.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I have decided to team them up with a decimator for some anti high ARM. seems like an effective combo no?

Still wondering if the field gun is a good choice.

The Decimator is probably one of the worst warjacks in the game when all said and done, at least considering faction context. The field gun is probably one the worst artillery pieces in the game. The man-o-war bombadiers are pretty close to the bottom too.

At the end of the day, all these elements are going to be more of a liability than an asset given the opportunity cost of taking them. So long as you use them in a balanced non-spammy way with the right support elements you're certainly not in insta-lose territory, but you're certainly heavily handicapping yourself.

Man-o-Wars and Khador 'Jacks are for the most part, poor choices. They're not a good reason to buy into the faction at least from a game play perspective. This is probably the place where PP dropped the ball the most in designing the game. They gave the faction with the most imposing looking 'Jacks and Heavy infantry a design space that doesn't really want to use them all that much.

I have been trying to work this out with /tg/ this is the list they suggested.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594463.page

I am looking for advice as to how to use these units if possible, but I am rather happy with the list at this point if only from an aesthetic point of view. Now I just have to make it work on the table.

It's probably the best you're going to do, with those choices at that points level. Really best of luck to you. Just be warned that the elements you've fallen in love with are the ones that seem to cause more player attrition and disappointment with the system than any others.

Mind elaborating on the player attrition thing? I was planning on joining this hobby because my 40k hobby seems to be falling apart, and I know 8 ex-40k players that now play this weekly.

I am wondering if not a decimator, then what warjack would best serve a shooty list supported by Vlad? I need something that will kill high ARM.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Mind elaborating on the player attrition thing? I was planning on joining this hobby because my 40k hobby seems to be falling apart, and I know 8 ex-40k players that now play this weekly.

Players that get into the game for Khador to run Man-o-Wars and Heavy 'Jacks, tend to find this really isn't a really great space. It just doesn't hold its own against a large majority of the styles of armies that are run, and in the places it does work tend to be with specific casters in specific match-ups with favorable terrain/scenario conditions. It's just not really great.

Khador as a faction is largely about its small-based infantry. Winterguard, Ironfangs, Kayazy, Doom Reavers and the like. They also get great use out of their cavalry and casting options. While these are solid choices that make Khador a formidable faction with diverse and interesting play options, that even leave room for lychpin support from 'Jacks... it isn't what attracts new players.

It seems a lot of new players attracted to Khador envision a sort clanking group of warjacks, supported by a brick of dudes in steam armor.. and that just is not at all what the faction is about. So they invest money in these models and don't get the performance they want out of them and don't enjoy the game enough. They either bail to another faction, or out of the game all together.

I am wondering if not a decimator, then what warjack would best serve a shooty list supported by Vlad? I need something that will kill high ARM.

In general look to the character 'Jacks. If you're looking for something that can play a ranged role and scrap things in melee, consider the behemoth. Two Bombards make it a relatively efficient gun platform and it's armor-piercing fists will make short work of just about anything. Just keep in mind it's very expensive and will be hard to fit at lower points levels.

Hmm...I am honestly not married to Khador Jacks. I love the man-o-war, but the jacks I can take them or leave them. I am simply looking for something to take on high ARM, so if cheap infantry is what Khador is all about, then cheap infantry is what I shall take. The idea of waves of cheap infantry advancing as a screen for my man-o-war bombards appeals to me.

So my next question, how do I make this work? What infantry do I bring?

Winter Guard Infantry are cheap as chips (4/6 for min/max size).

Iron Fang Pikemen are not cheap, but are harder and more likely to screen for longer.

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Is there a way to design a list around man-o-war bombards and win? I am a new player, was thinking of starting with Convergence, but saw man-o-war and fell in love. I am told they suck, but they can't be so bad as to guarantee a loss can they? Anyone has some strategies or list ideas to make this most wondrous model worth using on the table top?

everything can be built into an effective, game winning strategy. but not everything is equally useable all the time, with everything, and against all opponents.

men o war are a solid unit. that said, theyre "specialists" as opposed to "generalists". they need support to get anything out of them. they have a number of weaknesses. if you can give them the support they need, and get them to where they need to go, then they'll shine. Alas, not everyone can offer them this support, which limits them to more niche builds rather than popular builds.

you need to understand their limitations.

the first is cost. they're pricey. really, really pricey. they should be 5/8 but instead they're 6/9 or 7/11 and for 11pts im 1pt short of an iron fang deathstar, 1point to spare from max nyss hunters and 2pts off a max winter guard deathstar. for what they bring, they're not worth it as generalist units. why? because they're slow. ideally, you'd want to run them up the board as fast as possible, grab zones and hold against whatever goes against them. and with ARM21 and lots of hit points, they can do a lot of holding. but they're too slow to do this. which turns them into a second wave unit. and they're too pricey for this, and lack the attack volume to truly make it count. and honestly, there are better units to fit in the role of second wave units - the great bears, for example.

Now, can they work? Yes. absolutely. 2 examples.

I have had fantastic success running a squad of Men o War with my epic Irusk lists at 50pts. they work as an incredibly solid anchor around which the rest of my list can operate. Irusk solves the low speed issue with tactical supremacy, and his martial discipline ability allows lots of shenanigans- essentially, i can ignore the men o war for movement and LOS purposes, so i can have a whole army shooting through, and charging through this all but impervious wall of ARM21 madness with lots of hitpoints and tough to boot from epic Irusk. and my opponent cant shoot through the men o war as they block LOS across a huge stretch of the board and he cant charge through them until he kills them all. its an extremely effective brick. its gives me great positioning and control abilities as well as supporting a fantastic attrition game.

My friend runs a butcher theme list which also helps men o war. it grants a price discount for multiple squads, and a speed bonus on the first turn. he's done well enough locally with it, but im not convinved as to its performance, at, say, a Masters level event. he certainly enjoys running it though!

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:I have decided to team them up with a decimator for some anti high ARM. seems like an effective combo no?

Still wondering if the field gun is a good choice.

artillery is generally rather lacklustre- pp didnt want the game to revolve around gunlines.

decimators are OK, but as a primary high-ARM cracker, i think there are better options. essentially, its a focus hog and whilst its buzzsaw is quite a good weapon, its ranged prowess is nothing to write home about.

if you want dedicated High ARM crackers, look at the infantry. doom reavers or iron fangs make a mockery of most high arm units in the game. cracking high ARM is what khador does best.

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Mind elaborating on the player attrition thing? I was planning on joining this hobby because my 40k hobby seems to be falling apart, and I know 8 ex-40k players that now play this weekly.

I am wondering if not a decimator, then what warjack would best serve a shooty list supported by Vlad? I need something that will kill high ARM.

A lot of people seem to come to warmachine thinking the game is all about big shiny robots. its not. they're warmachines, but they're not WARMACHINE. and they see khador as the faction that runs millions of high armoured bruisers, and get disappointed when they (a) cant do this reliably (and this is backed up by the fluff - khador doesnt do mass armour), and (b) those high ARM bruisers die relatively easily (the damage output in this game is quite high, and a huge shift from what you're used to in 40k where 2++ re-rollable saves are the rule, rather than the exception, and things dying to a guy with a rifle doesnt really happen).

Its better to be realistic about what this game is all about.

What warjack serves a shooty list? well, it depends. what do you want it to do? more shooty? black ivan, destroyers, behemoth. second wave melee? pretty much anything. remember, jacks are "concentrated force". they're "tanks" in an RPG. they wont kill millions of enemy infantry, but they will hold up and clobber the other guy's bruiser if you get the charge off.

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:Hmm...I am honestly not married to Khador Jacks. I love the man-o-war, but the jacks I can take them or leave them. I am simply looking for something to take on high ARM, so if cheap infantry is what Khador is all about, then cheap infantry is what I shall take. The idea of waves of cheap infantry advancing as a screen for my man-o-war bombards appeals to me.

So my next question, how do I make this work? What infantry do I bring?

What infantry do you like? khador likes her infantry. kayazy assassins. winter guard. iron fangs. mercenary units like the boomhowlers or nyss hunters? plenty viable options there.

I am a big fan of Winter Guard, and am thinking about running several squads with Joe. I was thinking maybe one riflemen squad and two infantry squads as shields for the bombards, which are not the best in melee. I am also thinking about including Iron Fangs, though I hate the models, people on here and /tg/ seem to think they are the best anti charge unit I can get a hold of to defend my shooty list.

Again I have no idea if any of this is true... Still in the deciding what to buy stage at this point.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I am a big fan of Winter Guard, and am thinking about running several squads with Joe. I was thinking maybe one riflemen squad and two infantry squads as shields for the bombards, which are not the best in melee. I am also thinking about including Iron Fangs, though I hate the models, people on here and /tg/ seem to think they are the best anti charge unit I can get a hold of to defend my shooty list.

Again I have no idea if any of this is true... Still in the deciding what to buy stage at this point.

This is thinking is very much along 40k lines. In WM/H more often than that you're not going to want multiples of like units, and 2x WGI + 1x WGR is kind of overkill in that department. The level of redundancy in the "Bodies + Low POW Shots" is crazy. The idea of "Several Squads of X" isn't really something that happens outside of very specific lists. Lists tend to be diverse, taking 1 allotment of many different things all playing a different role. You will see doubles, here and there when a list needs a focused concentration on something but that is more an exception than the rule. This is especially true when you're starting and points levels don't allow for those kind of redundancy approaches, and you don't have the experience to understand when and why it is appropriate.

What I'd suggest if you're certain Khador is the faction you're going for, is to maybe pick up a battlebox get in 5 games with that. Pick up the winter guard unit box, and joe. Have a few games with that. Then slot in your Bombardiers and have a go at a few games with that setup.

At that point, stop and evaluate what you like and how it plays. The gameplay considerations and list building practices in WM/H are so different from 40k as to make it hard to actually explain what the differences are in a way that is within the scope of this kind of post.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I am a big fan of Winter Guard, and am thinking about running several squads with Joe. I was thinking maybe one riflemen squad and two infantry squads as shields for the bombards, which are not the best in melee. I am also thinking about including Iron Fangs, though I hate the models, people on here and /tg/ seem to think they are the best anti charge unit I can get a hold of to defend my shooty list.

Again I have no idea if any of this is true... Still in the deciding what to buy stage at this point.

Yeah. Stop. Right now.

This game does not work like that, and certainly doesn't reward spam. It's a lot less three of this, and three of that, and more max winter guard and max kayazy, for example.

Secondly, your scale is way off. Three squads of winter guard and bombardiers is about 30points right there. It leaves you no room for jacks, support pieces, solos, and so on. In most 35pt armies you won't be seeing more than two or three squads. Your list won't have a lot of options. Remember, These are not the galaxy shattering battles of the forty first millennium where a million men die before dawn, this is a skirmish in a setting the size of Western Europe.

Thirdly, the tactics in your head won't translate to tactics on the table top. And this is to do with you not being familiar with the mechanics, so it's no biggy at all. But us rather you didn't go off and spend lots of money for little return. Fir example, kovnik joe can only buff one squad at a time. He turns mediocre troops into amazing ones. So while he is inspiring one squad, the other two are.... Kinda lacklustre. Bad use of your points! Another example. Those winter guard won't block line of sight to your men o war. I can still engage them with ranged weapons. Or else get through those unbuffed winter guardsmen. Def12 arm13 on its own ain't great. I can trample a jack through them.

Iron fangs are great. I'm building up two squads of black dragon pikemen right now. Good solid stats all round, reasonable cost, and great hitting power, shield wall, and iron flesh turns them into an incredibly obnoxious tarpit.

Sorry I hav'nt read what everyone was saying, but from what I read from you....

Don't think Warmachine/Hordes is a cheap version of 40k. The game is totally different and work completely different. If at the root you don't get in the game, you won't find your "lovely" 40k gaming system in Warmachine. Once this is said, GW make awesome quality figurine I have to give them that, but aesthetic is not enought for a tabletop game and this is how I discovered the Warmachine gaming system while I was looking for an alternative gaming system. Many 40k players start getting converted to Warmachine for many reasons, I don't blame them and it is even a sign that after all... if people like the game it's maybe because it have this little something that GW does'nt have, which is at my own opinions... rules!

The game system rely on a important character, the warcaster. This warcaster have spell which help your troops or debuff the ennemy troops. If you kill the warcaster, the game is over. The goal of an army is to build a synergy around your warcaster with troops and jacks. It's not about adding or removing core units and "special" troops. It's all about maximized the benefits of every units. Every troops/solo/jacks have a utility for the warcaster.

I think you started at the bottom of the list by choosing a troop and trying to surround it with more flesh... The main idea of Warmachine is to find a warcaster, see what he do and from there start to build an army which will benefit for your caster and for your whole army. Find a good warcaster, stick to it, learn from it and build from it.

If I could suggest you a good warcaster that work well with Man-O-War, I would suggest you Irusk. He have a good spell call Battle Lust, which give an additional die on melee damage row. He also have another useful defensive spell call Iron Flesh which give a +3 DEF, but -1SPD. Combine Shook Troopers with Shield Wall and a Iron Fang Kovnik and you gain a solid defensive unit of 14 DEF and 21 ARM with 8Boxes. A little expensive... but quite versatile! As you see, it's all about synergy not only aesthetic...

What will you do if you build an army around miniature you find pretty and your opponent one shoot kill them at first turn... You will see the game getting heavier after every turn haha!

First thing to do is find a caster you like. The build a last around them that works.

You can kind of switch it up with a unit them finding a caster, but it doesn't usually work out in as good of a list.

If your a new player, buy the battlebox and play some games.

Seriously, it may sound boring but this is the best idea. You may find out you don't like the way warmachine works and you'll be at a disadvantage starting out at anything other than battlebox level. There are so many little rules that need remembering that it's best to get them all done at small levels rather than aiming high too soon.