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2014/05/12 19:12:06
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
"Former National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director Michael Hayden (Reuters/Larry Downing)
Al-Qaeda, Arms, CIA, Conflict, Drones, Hacking, Human rights, Information Technology, Intelligence, Internet, Law, Politics, Scandal, SciTech, Security, Terrorism, USA At a recent debate concerning the National Security Agency’s bulk surveillance programs, former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden admitted that metadata is used as the basis for killing people.
The comments were made during a debate at Johns Hopkins University, after Georgetown University Law Center professor David Cole detailed the kind of information the government can obtain simply by collecting metadata – who you call, when you call them, how long the call lasts, and how often calls between the two parties are made.
Although NSA supporters often claim such metadata collection is permissible considering the content of the call is not collected, Cole argued that is not the case, since the former general counsel of the NSA, Stewart Baker, has already stated metadata alone is more than enough to reveal vast amounts of an individual’s personal information
Writing in the New York Review of Books, Cole elaborated (you can also watch his explanation around the 14 minute mark of the embedded video):
“Of course knowing the content of a call can be crucial to establishing a particular threat. But metadata alone can provide an extremely detailed picture of a person’s most intimate associations and interests, and it’s actually much easier as a technological matter to search huge amounts of metadata than to listen to millions of phone calls. As NSA General Counsel Stewart Baker has said, 'metadata absolutely tells you everything about somebody’s life. If you have enough metadata, you don’t really need content.'
“When I quoted Baker at a recent debate at Johns Hopkins University, my opponent, General Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and the CIA, called Baker’s comment 'absolutely correct,' and raised him one, asserting, ‘We kill people based on metadata.’”
"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 19:12:58
2014/05/12 19:17:30
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Well, metadata is good enough for advertising purposes. I don't know if I'd be completely confident that it's good enough for drone strike purposes, but it's not such an out there proposition as the article assumes. I would imagine if they had a list of everybody you made phone calls to over a sustained period of time they'd be able to know a lot about that person regardless of what the person actually said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 19:41:25
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2014/05/12 19:42:59
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
dementedwombat wrote: I would imagine if they had a list of everybody you made phone calls to over a sustained period of time they'd be able to know a lot about that person regardless of what the person actually said.
Not enough to kill them.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2014/05/12 19:49:22
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
dementedwombat wrote: I would imagine if they had a list of everybody you made phone calls to over a sustained period of time they'd be able to know a lot about that person regardless of what the person actually said.
Not enough to kill them.
And yet, its being used to target people to be killed.
Again, this is what we KNOW is going on, what we dont know is likely worse.
Its entirely in the realm of both possibility, and probability, that is is being used against domestic targets of interest as well.
This combined with the ever widening definition of "terrorist" "insurgent" and other various euphamisms employed, makes for a present set of circumstances that makes 1984 look tame.
2014/05/12 19:51:56
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
dementedwombat wrote: I would imagine if they had a list of everybody you made phone calls to over a sustained period of time they'd be able to know a lot about that person regardless of what the person actually said.
Not enough to kill them.
And yet, its being used to target people to be killed.
Again, this is what we KNOW is going on, what we dont know is likely worse.
Its entirely in the realm of both possibility, and probability, that is is being used against domestic targets of interest as well.
This combined with the ever widening definition of "terrorist" "insurgent" and other various euphamisms employed, makes for a present set of circumstances that makes 1984 look tame.
Yup. Before you could be ridiculed for believing the government was spying, now everybody has turned it in to a punchline.
"Government spying even more, must be a Monday!1"
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2014/05/12 19:52:17
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
I'd argue that you use metadata to get "probable cause" so that you can get access to data, then you can make a move. I'd really have no issue with this from a privacy standpoint or from a burden of proof standpoint.
No idea if that's actually what is being done though seeing as how I don't work at the NSA (that I can disclose).
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2014/05/12 19:54:08
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Everyone in this thread just made their way on to a list. This is scary stuff.
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2014/05/12 19:55:39
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
I for one welcome our new metadata using overlords, and righteously call out all nattering nabobs of negativity who would deny its greatness.
Hail Ming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 19:55:54
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2014/05/12 20:09:49
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Frazzled wrote: I for one welcome our new metadata using overlords, and righteously call out all nattering nabobs of negativity who would deny its greatness.
Hail Ming.
Thought you were Lordofhats finally coming out
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2014/05/12 20:17:46
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Frazzled wrote: I for one welcome our new metadata using overlords, and righteously call out all nattering nabobs of negativity who would deny its greatness.
Hail Ming.
Thought you were Lordofhats finally coming out
That would be the post along the lines of
"if you are not fraternizing with people on the bad list, you have nothing to worry about regarding your meta data marking you for death."
2014/05/12 20:25:39
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
I guess people happily forget where I criticize the CIA (and NSA) for constantly engaging in bad decision making. Can they use metadata to decide who to kill? Yeah. Doesn't shock me that they do, but that's a stupid overly complicated way to go about the task and morally suspicious given that metadata is aggregate data and hardly useful for singling people out unless you want to engage in logical absurdities (but this is the CIA).
The CIA has been killing people using stupid reasons for decades. Nothing new here. Given the history of the subject, they'll probably just keep doing it cause enough people don't care. Metadata is too indiscriminate for a discriminate task like killing people. Add it to the list of the CIA's piss poor decisions.
I'd argue that you use metadata to get "probable cause" so that you can get access to data, then you can make a move. I'd really have no issue with this from a privacy standpoint or from a burden of proof standpoint.
From the way it was discussed it sounded like they used metadata to analyze risk, which is fine in a sense, but taking it to the point that it can justify killing a target seems perfectly in line with the government's use of advanced technologies they have vague understandings of.
daedalus wrote: I can't wait to see how far the goalposts go sailing on this one.
I seem to recall the Dakka Young Totalarianism Club holding quite the amount of derision toward anyone expressing concerns with "metadata" collection.
Harrumph.
we started playing soccer, but for some reason, out ball has to go through the net, then through the uprights, then in a basketball hoop, then into a hockey net, followed by a rebound off the wall into the corner pocket of a pool table.
Thats about how far the "dont worry about meta data and the NSA" crowd have been moving the goal posts.
2014/05/12 20:40:53
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
daedalus wrote: I seem to recall the Dakka Young Totalarianism Club holding quite the amount of derision toward anyone expressing concerns with "metadata" collection.
Ooooh, we have one of those? Where do I sign up? Do we get jackets with cool logos on the back?
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2014/05/12 20:41:18
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Although what can we do? I've been considering doing something like holding up signs at the overpass of a busy Seattle freeway
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/12 20:41:32
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2014/05/12 22:00:39
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
I can't resist..I'm sorry. I cannot resist. I have to do it.
Spoiler:
Baron trigger finger posed over the selector switch of the 90mm and Hellfire's waiting for the kill command
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Warning: Stupid Allergy
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2014/05/12 23:08:40
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
Killing people on the basis of metadata is even worse than if they were actually intercepting the content of the communications. It's an extension of the doctrine of "signature strikes" and just as stupid. There are many reasons a terrorist might be in communication with you - because you're an anti-Al-Qaida preacher and they don't like you telling everyone how much they suck, because they're a distant cousin and you're getting married next month, because they've kidnapped your daughter and want their demands met. It is flat out insane to believe that anyone who has contact with any member of an irregular force is themselves an enemy combatant.
Hell, even if Al-Qaida was a regular army, this would still be a war crime. If all you're doing is looking at metadata, you can't distinguish between a gunship and an ambulance.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
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2014/05/13 00:39:16
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
That stop soon Kronk. Soon and then of course being Ninja quick on deleting browser history
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/05/13 00:49:42
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/05/13 01:30:26
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
kronk wrote: My browser settings on my computer is set to auto-delete when I close it.
"What have you been doing all day?"
"Nitting websites!"
Likewise. I shudder to think what might happen if someone got onto my google search history. I'm sure a hellfire missile is getting vectored into my window any day now...
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2014/05/13 03:13:01
Subject: Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
AlexHolker wrote: Killing people on the basis of metadata is even worse than if they were actually intercepting the content of the communications. It's an extension of the doctrine of "signature strikes" and just as stupid. There are many reasons a terrorist might be in communication with you - because you're an anti-Al-Qaida preacher and they don't like you telling everyone how much they suck, because they're a distant cousin and you're getting married next month, because they've kidnapped your daughter and want their demands met. It is flat out insane to believe that anyone who has contact with any member of an irregular force is themselves an enemy combatant.
Hell, even if Al-Qaida was a regular army, this would still be a war crime. If all you're doing is looking at metadata, you can't distinguish between a gunship and an ambulance.
Not even mentioning that it's dependent on the faith that the data and analysis is correct, which given the CIA's track history, I have about 0 faith in. For crap like an ad campaign or a sociology project, metadata works fine. Trying to apply metadata to the individual level in such an absolute "this guy needs to die" manner is so brain dead I don't know where to start with it.
The problem isn't metadata. Metadata doesn't kill people. Dubious decisions by clandestine government organizations with too much money and power kill people
I remember the good ole days of acquiring hard reliable intel on the enemy. Then going out and opting them out
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/05/13 14:34:07
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
daedalus wrote: I can't wait to see how far the goalposts go sailing on this one.
I seem to recall the Dakka Young Totalarianism Club holding quite the amount of derision toward anyone expressing concerns with "metadata" collection.
Harrumph.
I remember that too. I wonder if the fact that metadata is used to select individuals for assassination will change any minds.
Nah, they couldn't possibly kill the wrong people.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa
2014/05/13 15:48:13
Subject: Re:Former CIA director: we kill people based on meta-data
