Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm still confused on this. How does a formation work with the Force Organization Chart? Do I first have to fill in my compulsory one HQ and two troop choices? If so, what happens if the formation I wish to use requires two HQ units by itself (not even counting dedicated transport)?

Formations have nothing to do with the FOC. You still have to take your minimum required to have an army, but Formations don't have any interaction with your Primary Detachment FOC at all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Formations have nothing to do with the FOC. You still have to take your minimum required to have an army, but Formations don't have any interaction with your Primary Detachment FOC at all.

Can you perhaps cite where this comes from? I'm bound to have this argument with a friend in our next game as he wants to make it a big game and I intend to field one or several formations.

Look through the 'Choosing Your Army' section in the BRB. It explains how you group your units into Detachments to make a Bound Army. A Formation is a type of Detachment. You can include as many different Detachments in your army as you like (barring House or Tournament Rules). Detachments are the key word now in 7th, not FOC.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Look through the 'Choosing Your Army' section in the BRB. It explains how you group your units into Detachments to make a Bound Army. A Formation is a type of Detachment. You can include as many different Detachments in your army as you like (barring House or Tournament Rules). Detachments are the key word now in 7th, not FOC.

Looking at the rulebook I was not able to find anything that said this. In fact, I found something that said that Formations are part of your detachment and occupy the same roles they normally would. That means that taking a Stormwing still occupies 1 heavy and 2 fast attack slots.

Re-read the very first sentence under Formations, right after Command Benefits.

It's right there in the very first sentence of 'Formations':

Formations are a special type of Detachment...

OK basically the simplest way to break it down is that there is no longer any mandatory force org chart. This is an Unbound detachment. It has no mandatory choices or restrictions, but offers no command benefits.

HOWEVER, you MAY organize your models into a multitude of different Force Org Options available to you. This is called "Battle Forged." You may take as many of these Force Orgs (called "Detachments") as you want so long as you meet the minimum requirements.

For the Combined Arms Detachment, you need the two troops 1 HQ we all know and love. Formations exist OUTSIDE the CAD.

There are a few different kinds of Detachments available, and all kinds of detachments offer different Command Benefits for the units selected within its parameters. A unit may only ever belong to a single detachment (aka you can't take a unit as both part of a formation and a CAD at the same time. It only can fill the slot needed for one of those charts.)

There are many kinds of formations out there now, and while the units taken within them lose out on the Command Benefits of the main army (Often ObSec), they gain special formation rules.

When you break it down, the easiest way to describe the relationship between a Formation and a Detachment is that a Detachment is a Force Org Chart that gives you mandatory and optional slots that you can choose to fill with whatever units you want that are in your respective codex, and oftentimes you'll gain some overarching benefit that is pretty generalized (ObSec).

A Formation on the other hand, is a Force Org chart that tells you specifically which units (and sometimes the gear they take!) you take to fulfil it. A Formation will typically have specialized rules designed to put a new spin on the units within the Formation (like the Bully Boyz formation: 3 units of 5 Meganobs that all gain +1 WS, Fear, and Fearless, I think).

Am I reading the time stamps right and this was a Necro?
I'm going to just scream and run anyway.....
FLEEEEE, UNDEAD THREADDDDDD!

JinxDragon wrote:
Am I reading the time stamps right and this was a Necro?
I'm going to just scream and run anyway.....
FLEEEEE, UNDEAD THREADDDDDD!

You are reading correctly, however, this thread was originally in General, and was necro'd there, before getting moved to YMDC.

So while it is a necro, it is not.

So... sort of the Plague Zombie of Threads?
Still running!

Okay so what about Formations and Chapter Tactics? I haven't seen an update to the 6th codex that replaces the wording. I would assume that without any rule the chapter tactics for your formation can be whatever the hell you'd like it to be.

The Anti-Tyranid SM formation (the one yu can infiltrate stormtalons) is surely UM.

AkiraSovu,
Formations are Detachments, and this is what the Errata has to state about Chapter Tactics and Detachments:
When choosing a Space Marine Detachment, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section.

Honestly though, it would be very unusual for a Space Marine Formation not to state that it consists of models from X Chapter but if one is missing then one has to be chosen.

JinxDragon wrote:
AkiraSovu,
Formations are Detachments, and this is what the Errata has to state about Chapter Tactics and Detachments:
When choosing a Space Marine Detachment, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section.

Honestly though, it would be very unusual for a Space Marine Formation not to state that it consists of models from X Chapter but if one is missing then one has to be chosen.

That is what I thought. Which is a bit strange since it can be totally different but also potentially hugely beneficial.

Is there any formations which do not have a model with a specific Chapter Tactic or a Rule stating they have X Chapter Tactic?

AkiraSovu wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
AkiraSovu,
Formations are Detachments, and this is what the Errata has to state about Chapter Tactics and Detachments:
When choosing a Space Marine Detachment, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section.

Honestly though, it would be very unusual for a Space Marine Formation not to state that it consists of models from X Chapter but if one is missing then one has to be chosen.

That is what I thought. Which is a bit strange since it can be totally different but also potentially hugely beneficial.

Unless I have completely missed it, Reclusiam Command Squad.

Ah, Dataslates....
These are becoming too common, how long till they have us buying them for each individual Unit that would of normally been included in a Codex?

Reviewed it while I was at work, shhh, and if we flick to the back of the book there is a Appendix which contains all the Rules needed to use this Formation. Within is a Chapter Tactics Rule which grants the Detachment access to a list within the body of this Rule. It confirms that this Detachment has full freedom to evoke the Chapter Tactic Rule to select whatever Tactics are desired, assuming there is nothing forcing a single Chapter Tactic or a Model which would be illegal if included in the same Detachment.

Now it was a quick review, entirely possible I overlooked a Rule forcing the selection, but by default it causes no issues as all the Rules needed are present on the Formation.

JinxDragon wrote:
Ah, Dataslates....
These are becoming too common, how long till they have us buying them for each individual Unit that would of normally been included in a Codex?

Reviewed it while I was at work, shhh, and if we flick to the back of the book there is a Appendix which contains all the Rules needed to use this Formation. Within is a Chapter Tactics Rule which grants the Detachment access to a list within the body of this Rule. It confirms that this Detachment has full freedom to evoke the Chapter Tactic Rule to select whatever Tactics are desired, assuming there is nothing forcing a single Chapter Tactic or a Model which would be illegal if included in the same Detachment.

Now it was a quick review, entirely possible I overlooked a Rule forcing the selection, but by default it causes no issues as all the Rules needed are present on the Formation.

So in other words your Iron Hands army could take a Reclusiam Command Squad and make it ...Raven Guard? For example.

The thing I will ask for you to do, as it will help you in a long run, stop thinking of Your Army in terms of Faction. The concept of an "Iron Hands Army" is only something found in the narrative, there is no requirement for Your Army to consist of one Faction in the Rules as Written. What the actual Rules focus on is the Detachments, with permission to include any number of any combination in Your Army. There is a reason I keep capitalizing the Y in Your, it is a good term for what the Army is as a whole and used repetitively through the Book so easily recognizable. Even if the Army consisted of only an 'Iron Hand Detachment' the Rules still refer to it as Your Army. It is good Terminology to use, because it stops us thinking of the Army as bound by previous editions 'One Codex' Rule.

In this situation Your Army would legally consist of one Combined Arms Detachment with the Iron Hand Chapter Tactic and a Reclusiam Command Squad with the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic.
Just as legal as having a Combined Arms Detachment of Iron Hands and an Allied Detachment of Raven Guard
Or having a Combined Arms Detachment of Iron Hands and a Combined Arm Detachment of Raven Guard

Or a Combined Arms Detachment of Iron Hand and one of those Tyranid Formations if you like, though they might not be the best thing to field as the synergy would be terrible.....