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I can see the argument that the Chaos Marines hightailed it to the Eye of Terror long ago and missed out on some of the goodies the Imperium came up with later on, like the different types of Land Raiders, weapons, etc. But what about all the cool stuff that was to be had from the 30th millenium that they took with them? Why doesn't some of that find it's way into the Chaos codex instead of having Chaos half assing it with equipment?

They have spikes, what more do you want? ; p

To be honest, the only equipment that Loyalists have that CSM don't that they would actually want is Grav-guns and Storm Shields.

Now, vehicles is a different story. Loyalist Dreadnaughts are better, Land Raider Variants and Land Speeders. I'd like to see CSM get something like these.

But then again, if they did get these then what's the difference between the two? Where is the unique aspect of each?

Yeah, despite not liking the models or the rules in general, I'm glad GW went the way of dark mechanicum and demon engines with the new chaos stuff. There should be more demon/chaos stuff to replace some of the vanilla marine stuff where possible. Wargear is especially lacking in this regard as it's all basically SM stuff still.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
To be honest, the only equipment that Loyalists have that CSM don't that they would actually want is Grav-guns and Storm Shields.

Now, vehicles is a different story. Loyalist Dreadnaughts are better, Land Raider Variants and Land Speeders. I'd like to see CSM get something like these.

But then again, if they did get these then what's the difference between the two? Where is the unique aspect of each?

The Thunderfire isn't anything to sneeze at.

Or new scuplts

Because if chaos was everything the IoM has, plus all the demons, mutants, possessed, etc-there was no reason to play loyalists.

CSm are getting new units in a few months (if you believe rumors) ill hold onto the beliefe that they will. im thinking that CSM could probably get their hands of jetbikes. which would make for some fun times. perhaps the pilots could of been fused to their bikes by chaos. permenantly attached and forced to simply ride around endlessly.

 ionusx wrote:
CSm are getting new units in a few months (if you believe rumors) ill hold onto the beliefe that they will. im thinking that CSM could probably get their hands of jetbikes. which would make for some fun times. perhaps the pilots could of been fused to their bikes by chaos. permenantly attached and forced to simply ride around endlessly.

that image is just really funny for some reason. Like a csm jet-centaur trying to sit at the dinner table. Or a bar.

Relapse wrote:
I can see the argument that the Chaos Marines hightailed it to the Eye of Terror long ago and missed out on some of the goodies the Imperium came up with later on, like the different types of Land Raiders, weapons, etc. But what about all the cool stuff that was to be had from the 30th millenium that they took with them? Why doesn't some of that find it's way into the Chaos codex instead of having Chaos half assing it with equipment?

Most sophisticated and ancient equipment has mostly been lost or destroyed. Remember that the Chaos Space marines have been openly warring with the Imperium for 10,000 years, and they probably exhausted most of their caches of Heresy era stuff a long time ago. I imagine that their current equipment is either cobbled together from scraps of Heresy-era equipment or made on demon worlds.

It's a slap across the face followed by a kick in the nuts to every Chaos collector and player out there that the Chaos Codex is lack luster.

We don't have chaotic variants of Loyalist Machinery. A Land Raider with Obliterator weapons perhaps? Anything would have been better than being forcibly fed those TL Lascannons...

And lets face it, being forced to take an expensive lord or HQ just to unlock Elite choices as troops is garbage. It's fluffy for terrible reasons even...

There are a plethora of reason the Chaos Dex was given the shaft, most was due to the rushed nature of 6th Edition. If Chaos get a new dex in 7th maybe they'll finally give the Codex something that doesn't involve Forge World models for leveling the playing field with sub-par / second hand & worn down models.

What craziness is this?

CSM have the best equipment. They can take combi-weapons galore, and each and every marine has access to bolter, pistol, AND sword. And their equipment includes upgrades that give them fearless or FNP or START THEIR ENEMIES ON FIRE. And that's before we add in salvo bolters that ignore cover and blow up their targets with rock music, defensive grenades made of the skulls of slain enemies, Ap4 melee weapons, and Ap3 small arms.

Some CSM come with basically all the shooting weapons blobbed into them, and they can pick whatever they want as they please. Some CSM vehicles have shooting attacks that start people on fire, drown them with noise to prevent them from overwatching, and can literally ram and crush infantry with their spiky bitz while everyone else is stuck tank shocking. Limitless terminator weapon options. Helldrakes and maulerfiends. Khorne lords on juggernauts. Marks and mutations.

You would have to be insane to think that drop pods and grav guns means that SM get better gear than CSM despite the deluge of evidence to the contrary.

...Meanwhile the Chaos Marines can slap a dozer blade into the Land Raider (WHY NOT US?), kit autocannons for heavy weapon squads, field Baleturkeys, and arm terminators with MUCH more flexibility in mind than loyalist counterparts. I envy those features!

Granted, the 'dex itself bears a low power level compared to the average, but we've yet to see what new units/rules/supplements they could get. I have a hunch that this might happen near the launch of the new edition.

The biggest fail from fluff / my point of view as the omission of Drop Pods of Chaos armies......given how often they are used and that chaos have their own special versions....

Differences can be summed up with one piece of wargear.

Artificier Armour: Terminator armour without the drawbacks.

Loyalists source from wargear list
Chaos must kill an enemy character and roll a 35 on a D66. Of course, if you're wearing Terminator armour then that's a worthless result, if you're a cultist you just got a 5+ save.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The biggest fail from fluff / my point of view as the omission of Drop Pods of Chaos armies......given how often they are used and that chaos have their own special versions....

Gah gray grrrraht why would you make CSM which always leaned more towards assault into SM terrible at getting there *jerks*

I never got that. SM get land speeders (including as a transport), drop pods, several variants of land raiders, rhinos, and razorbacks. What does chaos get to get close? Rhinos and a single raider variant brilliant!

 Mr Morden wrote:
The biggest fail from fluff / my point of view as the omission of Drop Pods of Chaos armies......given how often they are used and that chaos have their own special versions....

The next Imperial Armor is supposed to be "War machines of the Lost and the Damned" which will include 40k rules for the Anvillius Pattern Dreadclaw Droppod. While it costs nearly three times that of a regular drop pod it is an assault vehicle flyer with this rather awesome Heat Blast special rule that can be used on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike and after it drops off it's cargo and go and burn people in a sort of Vector Strike.
It also has "Drop Pod Assault" now so we can get some in Turn 1.

Why do guardsmen have to pay 25 points for a power fist when they get so much less from it than space marines?

Why do plasma pistols cost 15 points when they're so much worse than Plasma guns and cannons?

Why do tyranids have so few options for their models when they're one of the most mutable and variable armies in the fluff?

Why are Kroot so terrible in assault when their fluff makes them out to be experts?

Why can Orks trip over rocks and fail to get a charge on when they're only 3 inches away?

Why is a supersonic night scythe not capable of going farther than a subsonic daemon prince?

Why is the Wave Serpent's serpent shield, described as a weapon of last resort and as a ground traveling shockwave, is spammed in copious amounts to make for frightening anti-air capacity?

Why can a markerlight bring down a Harridan?

Why do the Dark Angels not have Grav-guns or Storm Talons or Storm ravens and are stuck without any of the cool toys more codex compliant legion descendants get?

How the hell does putting a fireblade and an ethereal on a fire warrior squad give them as much dakka per unit as a god damn gatling cannon?

Why do Nephilim and Avenger strike fighters have the same weapon but the first only has AP4?

Why don't Punisher Cannons, Megabolters, and Psilencers rend when Assault Cannons can with fewer shots when the rending is said to come from their rate of fire?

Why do Genestealers cost more than Maynarkh flayed ones despite being so much squishier and being worse at assault unless you pay out the nose for biomorphs?

Why do Praetorians described as supernaturally fast and skilled have such poor initiative, attack, and WS values?

Why do lychguards described as armoring up their bodies only have MEQ armor with no option for sempiternal weaves?

Why has only humanity ever invented the axe and mace?

Why do Banshees have to stare dumbly when they get out of a transport to get shot apart by the Necrons they were trying to charge?

Why is a flying dumpster like the Vendetta such a good air superiority fighter?

Why did the Devil-dog get more expensive than the Vanquisher when it's clearly worse?

Why can't factions who care nothing for their own casualties fire into assaults?

Why does Tzeentch have terrible god damn tables despite being the master of sorcery?

Where the hell did the Plague Terminators and Lords go?

How do things like the Hive crone and night scythe compete with the Manta sized Starfury in space?

Why does a scything Heirodule cost twice as much as a Shielded Wraithknight despite having a statline that is identical or even worse in some places?

The game makes no sense and I have little faith that GW has any idea what it's doing by this point.

I agree it's good that there's a difference between the two. Storm shields, grav weapons, a crusader type land Raider and Drop Pods are what's missing, and I can easily live with that for being able to put combi-weapons on my terminators and fielding obliterators. The lack of Drop pods hurt the most, as they are fun to play with and against.

I'd also like to see an Obliterator lord HQ option as all our HQs are combat oriented, and possibly some god themed wargear. A doom siren for that Slaanesh lord, sonic blasters for his bike or a rusty blade for the Nurgle lord would make a lot of sense.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
The biggest fail from fluff / my point of view as the omission of Drop Pods of Chaos armies......given how often they are used and that chaos have their own special versions....

The next Imperial Armor is supposed to be "War machines of the Lost and the Damned" which will include 40k rules for the Anvillius Pattern Dreadclaw Droppod. While it costs nearly three times that of a regular drop pod it is an assault vehicle flyer with this rather awesome Heat Blast special rule that can be used on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike and after it drops off it's cargo and go and burn people in a sort of Vector Strike.
It also has "Drop Pod Assault" now so we can get some in Turn 1.

It also takes up the fast attack slot which is our only real good place. Also don't hurt me with lost and the damned. You are just raising my hopes *whittles imperial marks off guardsman bits*

I've always wondered why people complain, "if they had everything loyalists have, what would be the difference?"

My issue is... why should they be different? They are just another kind of space marines. If you're arguing for balance reasons, just give them Chaosified versions of what loyalists have, different but not necessarily better or worse. Daemon engines etc are still supposed to be relatively rare, so not every warband is going to have them. Only the big legions can really even produce them.

To me, the problem is that the current CSM focused too hard on making them different in the wrong ways. What we need is not a bunch of completely different units and the weird loss of basic wargear like plasma cannons, etc., it's changes to things that make sense that we need, like Helbrutes instead of Dreads (but make Helbrutes actually worth a damn), cultists instead of scouts, different (non-crappy) land raider variants, and so on. Don't get rid of Whirlwinds and give us Defilers, give us "Helstorms", which could be Whirlwinds with a Chaos twist. They key is to make these Chaos versions have a significant difference so that they're not just loyalists with spikes. A few new units is of course nice, but taking away our basic stuff like certain special/heavy weapons, Land Speeders and Drop Pods while giving us Mutilators, Fiends, Warp Talons, Defilers, Heldrakes, Possessed and Spawn is way overboard IMO.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
The biggest fail from fluff / my point of view as the omission of Drop Pods of Chaos armies......given how often they are used and that chaos have their own special versions....

The next Imperial Armor is supposed to be "War machines of the Lost and the Damned" which will include 40k rules for the Anvillius Pattern Dreadclaw Droppod. While it costs nearly three times that of a regular drop pod it is an assault vehicle flyer with this rather awesome Heat Blast special rule that can be used on the turn it arrives from Deep Strike and after it drops off it's cargo and go and burn people in a sort of Vector Strike.
It also has "Drop Pod Assault" now so we can get some in Turn 1.

It also takes up the fast attack slot which is our only real good place. Also don't hurt me with lost and the damned. You are just raising my hopes *whittles imperial marks off guardsman bits*

Well in fairness we don't know what slot it'll take up yet. It's an FA slot for the general Legion lists but both Sons of Horus and Nightlords can take it as a dedicated transport so it could still be a DT for some units in any Imperial Armour book.

Sorry to drag up those old wounds but blame FW (Or the rumormongers rather) for that particular name.

 ZultanQ wrote:
I've always wondered why people complain, "if they had everything loyalists have, what would be the difference?"

My issue is... why should they be different? They are just another kind of space marines. If you're arguing for balance reasons, just give them Chaosified versions of what loyalists have, different but not necessarily better or worse. Daemon engines etc are still supposed to be relatively rare, so not every warband is going to have them. Only the big legions can really even produce them.

To me, the problem is that the current CSM focused too hard on making them different in the wrong ways. What we need is not a bunch of completely different units and the weird loss of basic wargear like plasma cannons, etc., it's changes to things that make sense that we need, like Helbrutes instead of Dreads (but make Helbrutes actually worth a damn), cultists instead of scouts, different (non-crappy) land raider variants, and so on. Don't get rid of Whirlwinds and give us Defilers, give us "Helstorms", which could be Whirlwinds with a Chaos twist. They key is to make these Chaos versions have a significant difference so that they're not just loyalists with spikes. A few new units is of course nice, but taking away our basic stuff like certain special/heavy weapons, Land Speeders and Drop Pods while giving us Mutilators, Fiends, Warp Talons, Defilers, Heldrakes, Possessed and Spawn is way overboard IMO.

Honestly I think the CSM codex is always bound for failure. It has too much expected of it. It needs to represent the legions, newer warbands, chaotic forces, recently renegade, and, yo make matters worse, tosses in cultists adding a lost and the damned theme. It is a hodge podge of forces and so will likely always be dissapointing.

In my dream world, Chaos would have three distinct armies:

Veterans of the Long War: Super elite, super tough, super expensive Space Marines with upgrades and special rules out the wazoo. Think Paladins and then some. Very small model count, excellent stat lines with their wargear mostly based on Heresy-era tech and Dark Mechanicus creations based upon that. Cultists and mutants provide the fodder if needed.

Traitors of the 41st Millenium: Akin to current CSM, but without the heresy stuff, and use loyalist equipment instead. Why did the Astral Claws dump all their storm shields, storm bolters and land speeders for combi bolters and autocannons? Fodder marines with good wargear access, limited access to daemon engines and other more "chaotic" elements.

Vessels of the Dark Gods: Daemon based army, replacing Codex: Daemons. Based around various summoning units; cultists, sorcerers, dark apostles and the like. The more bodies or points invested into the summoning process, the greater the rewards. Daemons to be very powerful shock troops, but begin dissipating if the summoning unit is destroyed. Akin to the old Tervigon lists.

Throw in various Legion/Warband rules, and I think we'd be set. Well, that and some non-hideous models. Honestly, the bad book hurts them alomst as much as a largely ancient and ugly model range. Chaos has not aged well at all, especially as loyalists get more and more of their old kits replaced.

 Ailaros wrote:
What craziness is this?

CSM have the best equipment. They can take combi-weapons galore, and each and every marine has access to bolter, pistol, AND sword. And their equipment includes upgrades that give them fearless or FNP or START THEIR ENEMIES ON FIRE. And that's before we add in salvo bolters that ignore cover and blow up their targets with rock music, defensive grenades made of the skulls of slain enemies, Ap4 melee weapons, and Ap3 small arms.

Some CSM come with basically all the shooting weapons blobbed into them, and they can pick whatever they want as they please. Some CSM vehicles have shooting attacks that start people on fire, drown them with noise to prevent them from overwatching, and can literally ram and crush infantry with their spiky bitz while everyone else is stuck tank shocking. Limitless terminator weapon options. Helldrakes and maulerfiends. Khorne lords on juggernauts. Marks and mutations.

You would have to be insane to think that drop pods and grav guns means that SM get better gear than CSM despite the deluge of evidence to the contrary.

Did you really just use the Soul Blaze Flag as a bonus for chaos space marines!?

This is some serious whitewashing, considering all that is still expensive and doesn't help at all, I mean after all the SM army is the one in the top four to five spots, while CSM is stuck lower or as 'heldrake and cultists' for Chaos Daemons

I'm also going to assume that now that almost EVERYONE can summon daemons, actual Chaos forces will still suffer all the negative effects, while also NOT being able to take Sanctic. Loyalists always take the good candy, and leave the crap for their brothers...

 MajorStoffer wrote:
In my dream world, Chaos would have three distinct armies:

Veterans of the Long War: Super elite, super tough, super expensive Space Marines with upgrades and special rules out the wazoo. Think Paladins and then some. Very small model count, excellent stat lines with their wargear mostly based on Heresy-era tech and Dark Mechanicus creations based upon that. Cultists and mutants provide the fodder if needed.

Traitors of the 41st Millenium: Akin to current CSM, but without the heresy stuff, and use loyalist equipment instead. Why did the Astral Claws dump all their storm shields, storm bolters and land speeders for combi bolters and autocannons? Fodder marines with good wargear access, limited access to daemon engines and other more "chaotic" elements.

Vessels of the Dark Gods: Daemon based army, replacing Codex: Daemons. Based around various summoning units; cultists, sorcerers, dark apostles and the like. The more bodies or points invested into the summoning process, the greater the rewards. Daemons to be very powerful shock troops, but begin dissipating if the summoning unit is destroyed. Akin to the old Tervigon lists.

Throw in various Legion/Warband rules, and I think we'd be set. Well, that and some non-hideous models. Honestly, the bad book hurts them alomst as much as a largely ancient and ugly model range. Chaos has not aged well at all, especially as loyalists get more and more of their old kits replaced.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

To Proposed Rules with that, messere!