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First off, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie if you aren't familiar with what this is.
Now, imagine a show (Or movie) that centers around the central conspirators, set in a universe where the Operation doesn't get fethed up so badly and actually stands a chance. Of course, nothing like this can ever exist anytime soon due to the whole Nazis thing, but it would be freaking awesome, no?

All I know about Valkyrie is it was a really bland Tom Cruise movie and that I think the name is based off some Norse mythological creature.

Things would have turned out worse for the Allies had Hitler been assassinated by Valkyrie. He would have been prevented from fething up decisions and the generals would have taken control, taking the German war machine down a saner path.
they still would have been Nazis though.

To offer a better analysis;

The plan made by the plotters was never going to work. Most historians, and by most I mean any worth listening to, are pretty much in agreement that even if they'd successfully killed Hitler, they'd never have been able to seize power for long. Himmler or Goring would have taken power most likely and one of these would have happened;

A) Himmler takes power, things in Germany get more insane. Himmler makes Hitler almost seem sane. Seriously. Hitler was a crazy bastard, but Himmler was the freaking Galactus of Nazi Germany. He wouldn't have fared any better than Hitler during the war, but he'd probably have started purging millions of other people who weren't already being purged in the Holocaust if he had his way.

B) Goring takes power. Goring was a spineless twit even worse at governing that Hitler or Himmler. He would have been more friendly to peace terms with the allies but he'd never accept an unconditional peace. Further, he probably wouldn't be in power long. No one liked Goring except for Hitler, and most would see his place at the top as a prime opportunity to knock him off and take over the big office themselves. Chiefly, Himmler wouldn't bat an eye at eliminating Goring to take power and thus B leads to A.

C) Neither Goring or Himmler takes power, meaning someone competent or crazy or who knows actually ends up in charge in Nazi Germany and what would have happened is anyone's guess.

Its fun to pretend, but really the plan was never going to work. It would have made things worse not better. Even then, the plans chances of even killing Hitler were always really piss poor. Even the conspirators weren't sure they could do it and eventually decided it didn't matter. So long as everyone thought Hitler was dead.

And that of course is where the plan failed. Hitler had put a lot of fanatical loyalists in key positions in Berlin. The idea that anyone could seize power from the Nazi's was outlandish. It was never going to happen. Applauds to the brave men and women who tried. They had more courage that most of the cowards in their country who knew how twisted it had become and did nothing. But their plan was always going to fail at some juncture.

Part of the Valkyrie plot involved arresting Himmler, Goering, and others and disarming the SS, etc. so the Himmler/Goering scenarios are not necessarily accurate.

In reality, the most likely outcome would be a civil war in Germany as the German military fractured among various factions due to divided loyalties.

If you want Alternate WWII history, watch Inglorious Bastards.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Part of the Valkyrie plot involved arresting Himmler, Goering, and others and disarming the SS, etc. so the Himmler/Goering scenarios are not necessarily accurate.

It relied on manipulating fanatic loyalists to arrest them. I.E. The plan wasn't going to work. They completely failed to really account for Otto Remer or Joseph Goebbels. Really the men behind the July 20 plot had a very very piss poor understanding of the domestic political situation in Germany with numerous men and contingencies never being accounted for*. Even if they killed Hitler, once the immediate shock passed, everyone would have realized who killed him. It's was really obvious and at that point the conspirators would have lost.

Most of Germany, whether people like it or not, was behind Hitler and the Nazi party. There was a slim chance to ever seize power for the conspirators, and frankly, they had such a badly thought out plan they never came close.

*EDIT: They assumed most Germans were like them. That they didn't like the Nazi's and simply needed a push to overthrow them. There's no reason to even believe this was true by 1944. Even if it was, it probably wouldn't matter. Most key political stations were occupied by Nazi's or Nazi sympathizers, the media was under Nazi control, the SS unchecked by Hitler probably would have seized power anyway with the standing Army occupied fighting the War, and most of the civilian population was unlikely to support a coup that violently overthrew the regime that held popular support at the time. No matter how you spin it, within the bounds of what we know to be true, the plan was doomed to failure.

No doubt about that.

Even in the event of a successful coup the outcome of the war would probably have been the same. No matter who was in charge the Red Army wouldn't have stopped until it had reached Berlin, there was no way anyone in Germany was going to convince Stalin to come to the table at that stage.

I think the Germans could have brokered a separate peace with the Western Allies, particularly if they were willing to pull back from all points West of Germany proper, the Germans might then have had the manpower to halt or turn back the Reds (at least briefly)

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think the Germans could have brokered a separate peace with the Western Allies, particularly if they were willing to pull back from all points West of Germany proper, the Germans might then have had the manpower to halt or turn back the Reds (at least briefly)

The Germans would have accepted a peace, problem is that Roosevelt was calling the shots on the conditions of surrender. Neither Germany or Japan (or any sane/insane country really) were going to accept unconditional surrender, and Roosevelt was never going to back down from that and our allies in the war were happy to go along with it. The Germans and Japanese hoped to negotiate separate peaces with the non-Russian allies, but I think history shows pretty well that wasn't going to happen.

They were going to be our bitches or they were going to be annihilated. Really kind of dark when you think about it

I dunno, I think they could have persuaded the Brits and French (and by extension the Americans) to a peace treaty, by saying "We'll stop all hostilities with you guys, withdraw from France, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark, and even pay out some reparations in like 10 years if you agree to stop shooting at us too." provided that the new German leadership was palatable to the leadership of said nations. The various minor nations that would get their countries back would definitely be all for it, and the French/British would have a hard time justifying NOT agreeing to those terms to their civilian populations, and in turn the US would also have a tough time with it, as war with Germany wasn't really a popular idea within the US, at least not until we started liberating camps...

 kronk wrote:
If you want Alternate WWII history, watch Inglorious Bastards.

Now that's a good movie.

 LordofHats wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think the Germans could have brokered a separate peace with the Western Allies, particularly if they were willing to pull back from all points West of Germany proper, the Germans might then have had the manpower to halt or turn back the Reds (at least briefly)

The Germans would have accepted a peace, problem is that Roosevelt was calling the shots on the conditions of surrender. Neither Germany or Japan (or any sane/insane country really) were going to accept unconditional surrender, and Roosevelt was never going to back down from that and our allies in the war were happy to go along with it. The Germans and Japanese hoped to negotiate separate peaces with the non-Russian allies, but I think history shows pretty well that wasn't going to happen.

They were going to be our bitches or they were going to be annihilated. Really kind of dark when you think about it

Well yeah, but I think that might have been because at that point they really had nothing to bargain with.

As I recall, Japan had no intention of surrendering, conditionally or otherwise, before we dropped the bomb.


Germany probably could have taken on the Russians if that was all they were focusing on. They almost were successful in their invasion as I recall. They were a week or so too late to capture the Russian manufacturing centers before they got moved beyond the Urals. And then the Russians would have lost nearly all their manufacturing capacity, plus their capitol.

Alternatively, and probably the better plan, would have been to focus on the Caucuses and Turkey and sort of go defensive with Russia. Build a wall they couldn't penetrate and be patient.

The Germans would have done a lot better if Hitler had just had an ounce of patience

 Grey Templar wrote:
As I recall, Japan had no intention of surrendering, conditionally or otherwise, before we dropped the bomb.

Surrender no. Getting a mutual peace was their plan. They hoped to take some islands, brow beat us a little, and that they could then come to us with peace terms that gave them a few islands they wanted and that we'd accept that.

Germany probably could have taken on the Russians if that was all they were focusing on.

That's a myth spawned by the Cold War, because apparently after we beat the Germans and Russia became the bad guy we all wanted to pretend Germany had a shot in hell. Germany was never going to be Russia. They were mostly focused on the Eastern Front for most of the war with upwards of 100 divisions. The other 10-12 that were fighting the Western Allies weren't going to make a difference.

The plotters against Hitler were still ideologically committed to seeing lesser races such as the Jews purged, be it by mass murder or forced emigration - Anti semitism was a way of life in Germany before Hitlers rise - They were still fervent believers in National Socialism and viewed the Russians as worthy of extermination too.

The majority of the Nazis, even to the end, realized that there was no way back for them, having ridden Hitlers coat tails to destruction. Even as the national socialist house of cards was falling during 1944, they mercilessly and fatalistically persevered with the war, with most high ranking members of the party looking to further their own end before the ultimate demise.

The Russians would have steam rollered their way through the eastern front into Germany.
The western allies aims were the conquering of Germany and not the removal of the regime - This was always the aim - And why a push to Berlin didn't materialize. A leadership change would not have changed anything though you could argue either way for a shortening or lengthening of the war.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

The western allies aims were the conquering of Germany and not the removal of the regime -

The goal for everyone was to remove the Nazi's from power.

This was always the aim - And why a push to Berlin didn't materialize.

The push to Berlin was something the western allies wanted to do very badly. They were weary of the Russians and feared that if the Russians took Germany first they'd never leave. Wanting to remove a regime and dismantle a country are different things. The reason the western allies gave up the push to Berlin is a complicated issue.

For one, public opinion was negative following the Hurtgen Forest, Italty, and Battle of the Bulge. Germany was never going to win WWII but they were plenty capable of making the Allies suffered immensely. Many at the time questioned the focus given to the European war when the Japanese were the ones who attacked us. Eisenhower was also very politically minded. He wasn't as paranoid about the Russians at the time as others and didn't like the idea of enduring casualties in the Berlin Race when Russia was capable of taking it on their own. Others feared that the Western Allies and Russians would end up fighting each other by accident if both attempted to take the city at the same time.

As a result of those issues, the Western Allies gave up on taking Berlin and simply let the Russians do it.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

The western allies aims were the conquering of Germany and not the removal of the regime -

The goal for everyone was to remove the Nazi's from power.

This was always the aim - And why a push to Berlin didn't materialize.

The push to Berlin was something the western allies wanted to do very badly. They were weary of the Russians and feared that if the Russians took Germany first they'd never leave. Wanting to remove a regime and dismantle a country are different things. The reason the western allies gave up the push to Berlin is a complicated issue.

For one, public opinion was negative following the Hurtgen Forest, Italty, and Battle of the Bulge. Germany was never going to win WWII but they were plenty capable of making the Allies suffered immensely. Many at the time questioned the focus given to the European war when the Japanese were the ones who attacked us. Eisenhower was also very politically minded. He wasn't as paranoid about the Russians at the time as others and didn't like the idea of enduring casualties in the Berlin Race when Russia was capable of taking it on their own. Others feared that the Western Allies and Russians would end up fighting each other by accident if both attempted to take the city at the same time.


As a result of those issues, the Western Allies gave up on taking Berlin and simply let the Russians do it.

D'oh! Yeah my bad about the regime change thing, obviously they wanted the Nazis out.

Allied intelligence also reported that there would be rabid defence - so called werewolf actions- throughout Germany - which is also why Eisenhower kept to the broad front approach.

 LordofHats wrote:

Germany probably could have taken on the Russians if that was all they were focusing on.

That's a myth spawned by the Cold War, because apparently after we beat the Germans and Russia became the bad guy we all wanted to pretend Germany had a shot in hell. Germany was never going to be Russia. They were mostly focused on the Eastern Front for most of the war with upwards of 100 divisions. The other 10-12 that were fighting the Western Allies weren't going to make a difference.

Cannot agree more. Forget all that nonsense about superior technology and fighting spirit. Germany had a crippling dependance on foreign resources that lives on to this day. Sure they made incredible progress on synthetic fuels, but at the expense of a huge portion of their industrial capacity, one that got systematically targeted by allied bombers.

Still, the alternative outcome for Valkyrie could have been interesting, but not in a good way. The Wermacht conspirators were in touch with elements from the former labor unions, socialist and conservative parties, but I doubt they had the contacts and knowledge required to oust the nazis from power. If they had succeeded in killing Hitler, his most likely replacement would have been another nazi, and the inevitable purge would have probably extended over to the very clandestine political elements that made Germany's post-war democratization possible.

 Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote:
First off, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Valkyrie if you aren't familiar with what this is.
Now, imagine a show (Or movie) that centers around the central conspirators, set in a universe where the Operation doesn't get fethed up so badly and actually stands a chance. Of course, nothing like this can ever exist anytime soon due to the whole Nazis thing, but it would be freaking awesome, no?

I think I would give such a television show a pass. It does not sound interesting to me.

Thinking about it, this sounds like an episode of Sliders.