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BRB 23, "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same Psychic Discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

While generating powers, how do I know if my Psyker will stick to one tree and thus make it impossible to swap for primaris?
Sometimes my PML3 Psyker might want to move to a different discipline after rolling two powers.

I can't tell if you are trolling or not

If you roll 2 powers and get what you want, feel free to swap to a different tree. You then wont get the free primaris.


If you roll 2 powers and dont get what you want, roll the third on the same chart and get your free primaris.


If you roll a bad power and wanna swap for the primaris, then end up rolling all 3 powers on the same chart, you just shnit out of luck.

Not getting my book til tommorow but curious about the Daemon / Chaos thing, does this mean that Chaos auto get their gods Primarus + the Primaris of another Discpline and get to roll or their Chaos Gods discipline takes the place of that primaris, because if true then Daemons can never summon daemons or use the Summoning spell, LoL

My reading of the psychic focus is that no you would only get the primaris of your god's tree. Psychic focus says as soon as you learn a power not from the same tree you lose psychic focus and the primaris power.

Yes but then that doesn't make any sense as would you get the primaris from the other tree? Cause you specialized? If that's the way its worded that kind of sucks and Daemons can never cast summons which doesn't make any sense as they literally state Heralds can summon Pink Horrors, but now they can't be cause they don't get the Primaris of the other discpline.

So which is it?

You get the Tzeentch Primaris and then ROLL on the Daemon Summoning ability or you give up the Primaris of your god if you pick Daemonology but still get the Focus ability get the Primaris Summoning spell from the Daemonlogy tree and then roll.

If it's the previous, Daemons can literally never cast Summoning.

I just got the book, I could be wrong.

Psychic Focus says: If you generate all powers from the same discipline you get the primaris in addition to your other powers. If during the game you get another power from another disclipline you immediately lose psychic focus and the primaris.

It also says if the power doesn't have a discipline like Force it doesn't count.

Chaos psychic focus says: If you have a mark you automatically gain the primaris from that discipline in addition to any other powers known.

I still think you won't get it but I'm just one guy on a small island far away from you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a mark of chaos automatically gives you a power from another discipline losing you psychic focus.

Which makes it so that Chaos Daemons can never cast Summoning which is stupid. I am not sure what I think about this, first they state that Heralds can in fact summon Daemons which is just outright lies.

Now here's the question can you still replace a spell for the one you roll for the Primaris? IE can you choose to take the Primaris if you roll bad? I'll get the book and look but is there another way to take the Primaris Power.

If so that makes Tzeentch units REALLY good.

You can still take the primaris of malefic by choice if you dont like your roll

Page 23 "Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Psyker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power."

 portugus wrote:
Having a mark of chaos automatically gives you a power from another discipline losing you psychic focus.

I read it the same way.

Alright, I think people are getting off track. I also think no one understood what I said, so I'll try again.

I have a PML3 GK Librarian. When it's time to generate powers, he can roll on Pyromancy, Sanctic, Divination, and Telekenesis.

All the following quotes are from BRB23.
Step One: "Choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker."
-I choose Divination.
Step Two: "Roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline"; or "randomly draw a card."
-I roll a 6, Scrier's Gaze.
Step Three: "Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Psyker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power."

Now, this is where I run into my problem. My Libby got a crappy power (for my tactics) on the first roll. I would like to have Prescience instead. But at this point in time, I do not know whether my next two Disciplines I choose will be on Divination. I might want to roll on Sanctic for my third roll, depending on what my second roll is.
So let's say I swap for Prescience at this point, on my first roll. Now I roll again on Divination, getting Foreboding. I think it's ok, but I want to try for Forewarning. So now I've rolled three times on Divination, qualifying me for Psychic Focus. But I've already taken Prescience, as directed by Step Three. BUT taking Prescience previously, when I didn't know what Disciplines I was rolling on, is now illegal according to p23: "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

Now can we see the problem? If, before rolling my final power on a PML2+ psyker, I exchange for the primaris, this effectively denies me the ability to roll my final power on the same tree. So I cannot tactically choose to continue rolling on a Psychic Tree.

You substitute before you get the bonus primaris.

Suite wrote:
You substitute before you get the bonus primaris.

And if I substitute before I get the Psychic Focus, and then continue to roll all my powers on the same Tree, I have broken the rule on p23: "cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

Does this mean that if I substitute for the Primaris, I MUST roll on at least two different Trees?

Eric that does indeed pose a problem.

However, by that wording, it seems GW expects you to know if you were gonna go for psychic focus before you finished rolling your powers.


So basically, they are stating you must either choose to go for psychic focus or not, before you roll for your powers.

Sounds like a poor power roll can really screw you out of your bonus power. Oh well that's warhammer.

@eric that is quite an edge case, but you seem to have the logic right. I would say that if you are hedging taking powers from other disciplines based on what you roll, you're not really "focused" on one discipline so you could fluff it that way. The guy who says "I'm rocking Divination today" is focused, and gets the bonus.

But the question remains:
What do I do when my PML3 Libby rolls once on Divination, swaps the first roll for Prescience, and then rolls twice more on Divination, thus getting Psychic Focus?

I have now followed the rules, and also broken the rules at the same time. How can this situation be resolved?

Will probably be eventually faq'd.

I'd say you get your original power back, or a reroll if you've rolled that power a second time.

Torquar wrote:
Will probably be eventually faq'd.

I'd say you get your original power back, or a reroll if you've rolled that power a second time.

This makes sense. Once you go for all in one discipline the power you swapped for gets unswapped again.

When you say "cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers", you're not giving the full quote. The bolded portion from the rulebook says "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers". It's almost like they're saying that before you start rolling you have to decide if you're going for Psychic Focus or not. Like someone already said, if you might roll on another table depending on what you get, you're not 'focused' enough.

Earlier in the paragraph it says how you can choose to substitute a generated power for the primaris, but you can only do that once per table because you'll already know the primaris and can't substitute it twice. So if you decide to get Psychic Focus you get the Primaris at that point, and then cannot substitute your randomly generated powers because you already know the primaris.

It would appear that if you do decide to roll all on the same tree then you regain the power you swapped, that's how I would take it. I'd definitely say that this needs an FAQ though

Its really not that hard. If your going to stay in the same disc, then do not swap powers for the primaris. If your going to mix and match, then you might want to swap powers.

So... an example of how it might play out.
I have a ML3 Daemon prince who wants Iron Arm. If I get Iron Arm, I then want to take Malefic Daemonology.

Roll first power. Get Hemorrhage. Swap it for Smite.
Roll second power. Get Hemorrhage again.
Roll third power. Get Iron Arm.
However, now that I've rolled 3 times on Biomancy, swapping Hemorrhage for Smite was against the rules and I should not have been able to swap to Smite... I should have 3 powers plus the primaris.
And in this situation, it's even more screwy because if I got Hemorrhage on my first roll then my second roll should have been re-rolled and could possibly have gotten Iron Arm, in which case I would not have rolled a third time on biomancy....

FAQ/Errata: Instead of swapping to the primaris immediately after rolling for a single power, generate all of your powers first and then swap for primaris if necessary/allowed.

If you already swapped, your primaris isn't free anymore. you bought it. so no Bonus for you.

Fragile wrote:
Its really not that hard. If your going to stay in the same disc, then do not swap powers for the primaris. If your going to mix and match, then you might want to swap powers.

Nailed it.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Its really not that hard. If your going to stay in the same disc, then do not swap powers for the primaris. If your going to mix and match, then you might want to swap powers.

Nailed it.

This "solution"does not adequately cover the rules gap that currently exist.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

This "solution"does not adequately cover the rules gap that currently exist.

I believe it does. If you have decided to focus on a particular discipline to gain the free Primaris, you will not exchange rolled powers for the Primaris because there's no point. The only reason to exchange a roll for the Primaris is if you are entertaining the thought of branching out into other disciplines, and thus you are not focused on that discipline.

 ruprecht wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

This "solution"does not adequately cover the rules gap that currently exist.

I believe it does. If you have decided to focus on a particular discipline to gain the free Primaris, you will not exchange rolled powers for the Primaris because there's no point. The only reason to exchange a roll for the Primaris is if you are entertaining the thought of branching out into other disciplines, and thus you are not focused on that discipline.

Nice fluffy explanation...but still does not cover what happens when, by following the rules, I break the rules.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Nice fluffy explanation...but still does not cover what happens when, by following the rules, I break the rules.

You're right, so I had a bit more of a think about it.

The problem, as you say in the OP, is in this line of the rules: (Rule B) "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

It seems to imply that substitution can occur after all powers are rolled, or at least after the player has locked in the tables they will be rolling on. But of course this seems to be in conflict with (Rule A) "Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Psyker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power".

As written, there is only one situation where Rule B can apply. That is immediately after rolling, but before deciding whether or not to substitute, the last eligible power. "all of his powers limits us to the psyker's final roll, and as soon as you roll that last power you are eligible for the free Primaris, so you already know it and can't substitute that last roll. Of course, the use of the word "any" is horrible rules writing, because Rule A says you make the substitution decision roll by roll. Actually more correctly, it says you can make the substitution roll by roll, not that you must, or that it is the only time you can. But permissive ruleset so this is a red herring.

OK still with me?

Now the key is in the language in Rule B: "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will...". Consider alternate wordings:

- "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, thus gaining Psychic Focus, he will" this takes the form [if action] [explanatory consequence] [then consequence]
- "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline, [deleted] he will" this takes the form [if action] [then consequence]
- as written: "If a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will" this takes the form [if action] [with intent] [then consequence]

We have to assume they used the 3rd form on purpose. If they'd used either of the first two forms, I'd agree that there is an irresolvable rules conflict. But as written, the rule is legislating for intent. You must have chosen all your powers from the same discipline with the intent of gaining the free Primaris for the rule to apply. So in your example, yes you ended up with 3 Divination powers, but you got there in a round about way without the intent of gaining the Primaris (as demonstrated by your decision to substitute), so you are not in violation of Rule B. It simply does not apply to you in this case.

Of course legislating for intent is bad rules writing, and I'm doubtful this is the way they intended to write it, even if the result is RAI. They just seem not to have thought about that case.