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This may be in the wrong section, but alas.

I just ran an Excel spreadsheet to compare the retail cost to the discounted price of the recently posted Hawk Wargames 1500pt deals. (I just did PHR, but...)

Long story short: the Hawk Wargames 1500 point deal is cheaper than the same models from the Warstore. For 1500 points it's $245.00 from Hawk versus $260 from the warstore (That's with shipping.) So some savings for the fence sitters.

I did some math on TheWarStore, SpikeyBits, MiniatureMarket and FRPGames. The discount from Hawk is very good, especially since its free shipping. Depending on the faction and the store, the Hawk discount is less than or better that most online stores (MiniatureMarket generally has the lowest price on DZC, even not counting their recent sale).

But if you're stateside, I would assume there is an additional wait coming from the UK, and the downside of the new bundles is that your choices are made for you. That's a good or bad thing depending on how much you like the composition of the list.

One of the new Shaltari bundles is exactly what I would have liked starting out- all walkers! So, at least you have some choice with the different kind of bundles they offer now. They are a very good deal.

Army deals are great. I think you use the FREE on-line army builder from Hawkwargames to figure out what you want.
THen buy.

I did question this some time ago on the Hot-LZ forums. It got denials from Hawk Wargames.

What I had heard was that Hawk did not allow discounters to remove more than 10% from the price. This meant that only starter sets when combined with 10% were competitive.
Hawk mega army deals however have a discount of up to 22% dependent on which one.

Dropzone Commander being the only game system I know of where the largest discounts are found with the primary producer, which is at the very least curious.
Am I to believe that independent retailers do not want to undercut Hawk Wargames?

It may well be that the 10% item discount has become a market rate and discounters see no need to undercut each other because of the small scale of sales compared to other lines, and most gamers do not notice the lack of competition with Hawk Wargames on pricing. In any case this is old news, for the last year the 10% discount limit was eroded, I can regularly find DZC on 20% discount at Total Wargamer and similar stores, but there was a time when 10% was all the discount you could find.
it may well be that Hawk Wargames does not restrict prices, either now or ever and were just clever enough in their marketing to out-discount independent retailers hidden in plain sight.
In either event Hawk Wargames did not like me working out the maths on actual discounts and talking about it and made a rare appearance on the thread to rebuff my claims.

The answer is to find fringe retailers and make personal deals with them, if you look closely enough they can be found and you can get to buy DZC at more reasonable prices.
i buy my DZC at 30% discount, in the possible event that Hawk Wargames does indeed frown on being undercut I wont say where.

@Orlanth. That's good of you to not reveal your source. You are a gentleman for that. Hawk is a little fish in a big sea and I think they need some help in these early years.

@All. So I asked this earlier on a different post but:

I just bought the 2 person starter. Where I live (very rural) there's one other 40k player and I am recruiting another. 60 miles away is a nice FLGS that doesn't yet carry DZC. I hope to change that. I would like to get more folks started, but I want to get a good army too. Should I buy in addition to the starter set, a starter PHR and Shaltari with 4 command decks or bolster UCM?

Hawk can discount more other retailers because they are the manufacturer.

Not sure what's so confusing here. They cut out the middle man.

The reason why this isn't more common is that a lot of games are sold through distributors and then go to retail. Most companies don't want to undercut retailers because they get their sales from retailers.

DZC is so small, and probably doesn't have that much distribution, that they don't have much reason not to offer discounts.

What's more, the cost in money and time (which means more money) is higher on resin miniature production than other methods. This means a lower margin for anyone carrying their product. Hence the reduced discount.

And to be frank, unless they're pulling around a lot of legal weight that they couldn't afford, most retailers would just laugh in their face and dump the miniature line if they tried to impose GW style restrictions.

 doktor_g wrote:
@Orlanth. That's good of you to not reveal your source. You are a gentleman for that. Hawk is a little fish in a big sea and I think they need some help in these early years.

I dont know how to rerad the above. Just for clarity, my source is NOT a recaster, if thats what you are thinking. Hawk Wargames gets the same monies it gets from other trade deals., and is not out of pocket by a single penny

However during the time I was unsure whether Hawk Wargames prohibited sales below 10% I made it clear that I would not be mentioning my concerns to the trading standards authorities, because Hawk was small. It is still of interest to note that prior to my expose on the Hot-LZ forums there was not a single discounter offering below 10%, and I am not the only one to have raised concerns of protectionism, I remember reading blogs of people who heard rumours that their local supplier was 'asked' not to discount below 10%. I have no idea if those rumours were true, Hawk Wargames was very swift in denying them, but fact remains at the time indies sold at 10% discount, Hawk sold at 19-22% via the army deals. Let's just say there is room for speculation, and that speculation might be of professional interest to trade authorities.
Which would damage an up and coming company, so i looked for my own way out of the problem.

This is all in the past now, a situation resolved through public airing in early 2013. Total Wargamer sells at 20% discount, still not matching a Hawk UCM Mega deal at 22% discount, but Hawk has already confirmed that retailers can make their own deal packs. Which combined with even a 10% discount is enough, currently if retailers dont sell below 10% its because the market hasn't raised enough stink about it. That is up to the collective you; I have ready negotiated with my supplier and I am happy with the arrangement. Simply put in the current financial climate I could not afford to buy DZC without a negotiated position and I would have to deny myself this game, but given an incentive to buy I would put good money down to buy several very large armies......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Hawk can discount more other retailers because they are the manufacturer.

Not sure what's so confusing here. They cut out the middle man.

That's actually illegal. You can choose to only trade direct, but if you allow retail you have to allow retailers a fair discount or they simply become advertising outlets for your direct sales.
Department of Trading Standards, if aware of the phenomena, would take a look at that.
My suspicions need not be valid, the very fact that retailers did limit to 10% and the manufacturer de facto undercut the retail prices in real terms will lead UK government Trading Standards officials to question why; because it's an extremely unusual situation in the retail profession for prices to be arranged this way.

Hawk Wargames may be innocent of wrongdoing, too few people realise what the OP realise, this is the frist theread on Dakka on this subject and the first time I have heardf about it since looking twice in 2012. I hope they are innocent and the Warstore at al has simply not realised they aren't competitive, or are happy with sales from prices as they are. In either case I would not want a fledgling company with a lot of promise to be subjected to an in depth government audit; even if it finds nothing the disruption could cripple them while they are trying to find their feet.

@Orlanth - I didn't think you were going with a re-caster. I thought you were protecting Hawk. I was paying you a compliment... or at least trying to. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Wasn't the intention.

Regarding the legality of changing prices. I don't think it's "illegal" in the USA. I'm no lawyer though and my knowledge base is minimal. I'm pretty sure that if you bought it as a shop owner, you can sell it for whatever the heck you want to (including online). You can take a loss (to shelter your business from taxes even), mark it up 1000% or whatever. You can piece it out, re-sell the bitz. That is, of course, barring any contractual arrangements. Caveat Emptor.

If the owner of the company (like GW) doesn't like it, all they can do is not sell to you anymore. That said, I suspect the Chinese (or anyone's) re-casting and selling violates international IP. That's again just a guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I looked it up.

Most recent US ruling was in 2007. Unusual case where it would be a retailer like a FLGS sued GW because GW stopped selling to them. Court found in favor of the mfgr. Could stop selling to a specific retailer. Don't think it allows price fixing though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leegin_Creative_Leather_Products,_Inc._v._PSKS,_Inc.

 doktor_g wrote:
@Orlanth - I didn't think you were going with a re-caster. I thought you were protecting Hawk. I was paying you a compliment... or at least trying to. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Wasn't the intention.

No problem, wasn't sure which way to take it and could read it both ways. No offense was taken.

 doktor_g wrote:

Regarding the legality of changing prices. I don't think it's "illegal" in the USA. I'm no lawyer though and my knowledge base is minimal. I'm pretty sure that if you bought it as a shop owner, you can sell it for whatever the heck you want to (including online). You can take a loss (to shelter your business from taxes even), mark it up 1000% or whatever. You can piece it out, re-sell the bitz. That is, of course, barring any contractual arrangements. Caveat Emptor.

Correct. Manufacturers can set prices for retailers on the threat that if you break pricing guidelines the manufacturer can choose not to sell to you anymore.

The illegality comes not from setting trade prices but if the retailers prices are not allowed to undercut the manufacturers price, directly or indierectly, that violates anti-competitiveness laws. It's rather subtle legislation designed to protect retailers and their business investments from unscrupulous manufacturers and distributors. Without this legislation retailers would be at the mercy of manufacturers who could leave them with de facto unsellable stock, by selling to retail, undercutting the retailers so they retailer goes out of business or has to do a 'return'. Which is a form of insurance when a manufacturer is contracted to buy back unsold stock to factory at a set percentage of sale value.

In my country, Nintendo does not allow the stores to sell their video games and consoles below the prices they recommend. This is what a guy who use to work in a gaming store told me.

Nintendo always have guys inspecting the store for regulations. I have seen Hasbro guys walking around toy stores, but I don´t know if they impose the same regulations.

I forget to mention, but miniaturemarket has aprox. 25% discount in DZC.