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Hey folks...

So...let me not beat around the bush on this one...

I don't think it would be too much of an exaggeration to say that if your either a player of the SoBs or the GKs, you've probably noticed that the past few editions/renditions of your respective factions haven't really brought about kind appraisals from those of us who don't play either.

Full Disclosure: I'm an Ork player - have been since the Original Rogue Trader, so I guess you can say i'm not so......invested? in many of these debates.

From the folks who who have a bone to pick with you guys, i tend to find all the arguments can be boiled down to a few things - A Sense of Favoritism and the "Goody-Two Shoes" factor.


Favoritism - This One Hangs over the GK folks a bit more. The whole Matt Ward/Kaldor Draigo business seems rather emblematic of it. No i'm not here to re-hash old arguments - just pointing out that amongst the rest of the SM folks, there's this lingering sense that a developers liking of a particular faction somehow catapulted said factions importance. (of course same case can be made for the Ultramarines right?)

"Goody-Two Shoes" - This is on you SoB folks.

Once upon a time when SoB first came out between 3rd and 4th, your faction was seen through the lens of a rather sarcastic take on a religious order. Your faction was essentially a Flat Cardboard uncomplicated Fanatical group.

That really isn't the case anymore is it? Most of the newer renditions of the SoBs tend to take a much less sarcastic and more serious tone to what the SoBs are at the end of the day. The Fanaticism is still there.....but now with Mysterious Miracles and Resurrecting Saints to boot.

And frankly, these changes rankle all the non-SoB players who preferred to keep you all as a Flat Cardboard Uncomplicated Group of Fanatics. They want to maintain that Satirical notion of religious institutions - which flies in the face of what the modern portrayal of the SoB is.


It seems both you and the GK players are in some peoples mindsets a kind of a Danger to the Grimdark mood, much in the same way the original conception of the Tau were like (and even with all the Orweillian overtones of the Tau ...they still get slapped around for being a little too on the up and up) perhaps because you kinda sorta can be interpreted as being "good guys" in a Grimdark world.

Now like I said, i'm an Ork player, if any faction doesn't fit the Grimdark so to speak its mine...and I guess we're tolerated because we fit that role of being the goofy/off-kilter faction that also just been around long enough to not get any lip.

As such, i'm not really invested in having 40K being 100% crapsack universe.

Soo... I wanted to get your perspective on things. Since Grimdark is the order of the day, how do you see your factions "fitting into" the setting? Fluff-wise, what niche do the SoBs and GKs fill in terms of Themes? Are you in fact the "Good guys" as your naysaying detractors will often say - or is that all overrated?

Really I must disagree with you completely.
In my general experience people think that the Grey Knights are too grimdark rather than not enough and any favoritism on their part is simply down to Mat Ward writing their codex in his typical hyped way.
As for Sisters, well, nobody seems to give a squig's ass, but I've never seen any complaints at being too goody goody because they occasionally demonstrate unexplained magic powers.

In this post, I'll stick to discussing the SoB, since I have a better understanding of them than the GK.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
"Goody-Two Shoes" - This is on you SoB folks.

Once upon a time when SoB first came out between 3rd and 4th, your faction was seen through the lens of a rather sarcastic take on a religious order. Your faction was essentially a Flat Cardboard uncomplicated Fanatical group.

That really isn't the case anymore is it? Most of the newer renditions of the SoBs tend to take a much less sarcastic and more serious tone to what the SoBs are at the end of the day. The Fanaticism is still there.....but now with Mysterious Miracles and Resurrecting Saints to boot.

Hmmm. Don't really see it that way, myself. The SoB codexes have been pretty consistent in terms of how they've charcterised the SoB. All throughout, they've been elite warrior zealots of the church. I don't think that they'v really had any major departure from their usual characterisation within the studio fluff.

As for the "mysterious mircales", I'll point out that the codexes have always implied that the Acts of Faith aren't miracles but just extreme feats of willpower. Though they are sometimes portrayed as magical in non-studio sources, Acts of Faith haven't changed within codex fluff. As for Celestine, yeah she got a fluff alteration in 5th, but I don't really think that she had much impact in altering the army's overall characterisation. Now she's just a current mystical hero to the SoB rather than a mystical hero who vanished.

I'm wondering, were you basing your view on the SoB having a "tone shift" on stuff like their appearences in games, tabletop rpgs, or books? I mean, as far as I'm aware they're roughly the same in those anyway, but I'm just curious exactly what you based your analysis on.

Also, your "goody-two-shoes" comment was interesting to me, though I don't think quite in the way that you meant. A fairly common complaint I see against the SoB is their percieved levels of purity and resistance to corruption, namely when they can do things like resist Daemons and keep to their indoctrination better than ant other factions can. I suppose that some see this as the SoB being "special snowflakes" or something like that, but in my view it's pretty justified within the fluff.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
And frankly, these changes rankle all the non-SoB players who preferred to keep you all as a Flat Cardboard Uncomplicated Group of Fanatics. They want to maintain that Satirical notion of religious institutions - which flies in the face of what the modern portrayal of the SoB is.

Ha, this is sort of amusing. In my experience, a lot of SoB fans want to keep to that more narrow, focused portrayal of the SoB as straight-up religious fanatics, whilst others want to "humanise" them a bit more, and have them loosen up a bit. Though this is just my experience within internet debates about the SoB, mind you.

Also, don't know if I'd call the SoB purely a satire on religion. The Ecclesiarchy and by extension the SoB may have elements of that, but they're also portrayed fairly straight too, and quite often appear as heroic or effective.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
It seems both you and the GK players are in some peoples mindsets a kind of a Danger to the Grimdark mood

Are we? Again, speaking just for the SoB, I don't think that they threaten the grimdark too much at all, nor are accused of doing so. If anything, the common complaint I see is that the SoB aren't human enough, with people wishing that they were less brainwashed and zealous than they are. But, as it stands, they are indeed uncomprimising fanatics who are amongst the most eager and brutal of the Imperium's enforcers with a reputation for burning things. Yes they have an element of heroism about them, but don't most armies?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Since Grimdark is the order of the day, how do you see your factions "fitting into" the setting? Fluff-wise, what niche do the SoBs and GKs fill in terms of Themes?

The SoB fill the niche of showing us just how far the religious extremism of the Imperium can go, when applied witihn an elite fighting force. They're also there to show the power of the common human in a setting that has Space Marines and all manner of alien mosnters or Daemons running about, and they do this particularly well with their Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith. And they also bring a cool aesthetic to things, taking the gothicness of the Imperim to an extreme and fielding things such as a pipe organ tank.

 Troike wrote:
In this post, I'll stick to discussing the SoB, since I have a better understanding of them than the GK.

Hmmm. Don't really see it that way, myself. The SoB codexes have been pretty consistent in terms of how they've charcterised the SoB. All throughout, they've been elite warrior zealots of the church. I don't think that they'v really had any major departure from their usual characterisation within the studio fluff.

As for the "mysterious mircales", I'll point out that the codexes have always implied that the Acts of Faith aren't miracles but just extreme feats of willpower. Though they are sometimes portrayed as magical in non-studio sources, Acts of Faith haven't changed within codex fluff. As for Celestine, yeah she got a fluff alteration in 5th, but I don't really think that she had much impact in altering the army's overall characterisation. Now she's just a current mystical hero to the SoB rather than a mystical hero who vanished.

I'm wondering, were you basing your view on the SoB having a "tone shift" on stuff like their appearences in games, tabletop rpgs, or books? I mean, as far as I'm aware they're roughly the same in those anyway, but I'm just curious exactly what you based your analysis on.

Also, your "goody-two-shoes" comment was interesting to me, though I don't think quite in the way that you meant. A fairly common complaint I see against the SoB is their percieved levels of purity and resistance to corruption, namely when they can do things like resist Daemons and keep to their indoctrination better than ant other factions can. I suppose that some see this as the SoB being "special snowflakes" or something like that, but in my view it's pretty justified within the fluff.

Much of what I speak of comes from my own experiences with the folks who have adopted the SoB as their army and who entered into the hobby via Fantasy Flight Games' rendition found in Dark Heresy or who took inspiration from James Swallow's novels.

I know i know.. non-Studio resources aren't "Canon" (hell does GW really pay attention to Canon), but in the more i look at the folks who are entering the hobby and who somewhat care about the Fluff - the more i'm seeing Non-Studio resources as defining what that particular faction meant for them.

An example all my friends keep pointing out was that Space Marines game that popped up before Relic Entertainment's financial issues. Amusing Game + Good Voice Actor = Bump in interest re: Ultramarines from those who are just being introduced into 40K.

Btw - i'm not in any way shape or form saying this is a bad thing or a good thing... Although i sometimes wonder if the Demographic of the 40K player is changing and with it expectations about what each faction should be.

Re: Acts of Faith/Corruption Resistance/Celestine

Again - Don't really have a horse in this one so to speak. But i've seen people go after the SoB precisely because of the above.

I always found that rather curious as to why the reaction was provoked in that manner though.

Also, don't know if I'd call the SoB purely a satire on religion. The Ecclesiarchy and by extension the SoB may have elements of that, but they're also portrayed fairly straight too, and quite often appear as heroic or effective.

Well i do think an element of Heroism has to be embedded into any of the IMperium's factions by virtue of the fact that for all intents and purposes, the forces of the Imperium are the "main characters" living out a kind of drama with Chaos. Remove one or the other and we don't have a defining undertone to 40K.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Since Grimdark is the order of the day, how do you see your factions "fitting into" the setting? Fluff-wise, what niche do the SoBs and GKs fill in terms of Themes?
The SoB fill the niche of showing us just how far the religious extremism of the Imperium can go, when applied witihn an elite fighting force. They're also there to show the power of the common human in a setting that has Space Marines and all manner of alien mosnters or Daemons running about, and they do this particularly well with their Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith. And they also bring a cool aesthetic to things, taking the gothicness of the Imperim to an extreme and fielding things such as a pipe organ tank.

Thank you for your comments!

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Much of what I speak of comes from my own experiences with the folks who have adopted the SoB as their army and who entered into the hobby via Fantasy Flight Games' rendition found in Dark Heresy or who took inspiration from James Swallow's novels.

Ah, okay. FFG has a slightly different spin on the Sisters than GW, with things like making AoFs actual magic and other slight alterations.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
I know i know.. non-Studio resources aren't "Canon" (hell does GW really pay attention to Canon)

Oh, I didn't say that. In actuality, 40K has no solid canon. Rather, it's very loosely enforced and is more a matter of one's personal interpretation. However, I prefer to stick to the studio version of the SoB, as it is the most consistent and, IMO, best porrayal of the Sisters. And also the portrayal from which all of these other versions are inspired.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
but in the more i look at the folks who are entering the hobby and who somewhat care about the Fluff - the more i'm seeing Non-Studio resources as defining what that particular faction meant for them.

An example all my friends keep pointing out was that Space Marines game that popped up before Relic Entertainment's financial issues. Amusing Game + Good Voice Actor = Bump in interest re: Ultramarines from those who are just being introduced into 40K.

That's not surprising, considering that the 40K games, books, ect. have their own distrinct appeal from the tabletop. And I think that the Sisters in particular have quite a few people first becoming familiar with them via a non-studio source, as the SoB becoming a less-played and less-supported army in the tabletop has in turn made their studio fluff less-known. A shame, IMO, since their studio fluff is pretty good.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Although i sometimes wonder if the Demographic of the 40K player is changing and with it expectations about what each faction should be.

I haven't noticed a demographic change myself. But yeah, there's certainly differing expectations in terms of the Sisters, at least.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
I always found that rather curious as to why the reaction was provoked in that manner though.

Another case of people seeing it as "special snowflake" treatment, I suppose? Personally, it's my opinion that is doesn't make them all that overpowered or anything, and still fits with their usual characterisation. Even the AoFs being magical works, I suppose, as long as said portrayal has the Sisters regarding it as divine intervention.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Well i do think an element of Heroism has to be embedded into any of the IMperium's factions by virtue of the fact that for all intents and purposes, the forces of the Imperium are the "main characters" living out a kind of drama with Chaos. Remove one or the other and we don't have a defining undertone to 40K

I don't know, I don't really think that the Sisters get a significant amount of favourtism just for playing for Big E. Though they're still pretty competent, like, being a satire isn't their defining thing. I think... That they're pitched more seriously, more part of the grimdark, than just being a satire. That's my impression, anyway.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Favoritism - This One Hangs over the GK folks a bit more. The whole Matt Ward/Kaldor Draigo business seems rather emblematic of it. No i'm not here to re-hash old arguments - just pointing out that amongst the rest of the SM folks, there's this lingering sense that a developers liking of a particular faction somehow catapulted said factions importance. (of course same case can be made for the Ultramarines right?)

Favoritism? Is that why Space Marines are the most quoted faction here? I would bet it is!

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
"Goody-Two Shoes" - This is on you SoB folks.

So, fanatical people willing to kill people for heresy are goody-two-shoes ? That feel more like well-intentioned extremist to me. And even the well-intentioned part is not that clear . Just look at how they deal with even the most innocent and well-intentioned mutant, it is a pretty good example of everything that is wrong with them.
I would say they embody the grimdarkness of the Imperium better than anyone else. If only because you would be hard pressed to find such concentrated level of hate in any other organization of the Imperium. They are not committing the worst atrocities (that would be something for the Flesh Tearer or something), and the Imperial Guard has a fair share of pretty grimdark regiment (DKoK, penal legions, …), but I think the Sisters win the hate price hands down. Hurrah for more hate!

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Once upon a time when SoB first came out between 3rd and 4th, your faction was seen through the lens of a rather sarcastic take on a religious order.

Sisters came out in 2nd, were developed in 3rd, in the White Dwarf, through ONE article called the Liber Sororitas, and received no meaningful fluff update since then.

"Goody-Two Shoes" - This is on you SoB folks.

Once upon a time when SoB first came out between 3rd and 4th, your faction was seen through the lens of a rather sarcastic take on a religious order. Your faction was essentially a Flat Cardboard uncomplicated Fanatical group.

That really isn't the case anymore is it? Most of the newer renditions of the SoBs tend to take a much less sarcastic and more serious tone to what the SoBs are at the end of the day. The Fanaticism is still there.....but now with Mysterious Miracles and Resurrecting Saints to boot.

And frankly, these changes rankle all the non-SoB players who preferred to keep you all as a Flat Cardboard Uncomplicated Group of Fanatics. They want to maintain that Satirical notion of religious institutions - which flies in the face of what the modern portrayal of the SoB is.

With all due respect... feth those people and what they want.

Honestly, I don't see too many people being overly down on the SoBs. Certainly not for being 'Goodie two shoes' or not Grimdark enough. Sure there are those against them because "we don't like them wimins in ourz 40K", and those against the old shoddiness of the models, and even those who take the approach that 'GW supports them poorly so clearly they aren't selling enough so clearly they must be terrible'. But 'not Grimdark enough'? I don't see that often.

As for me: Well, I personally think they epitomise the setting better than almost any other faction. You want over the top and Gothic? Here: have a tank with cherubs, religious reliefs and a pipe organ that shots missiles, or space nuns in corset armor with flamethrowers. You want grim and gritty? Here: have some suicide soldiers with chainsaws for weapons, or mecha with a criminal pilot strapped to the outside for punishment.

They are the very things that make 40k awesome, distilled and concentrated into a single faction.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Since Grimdark is the order of the day, how do you see your factions "fitting into" the setting? Fluff-wise, what niche do the SoBs and GKs fill in terms of Themes? Are you in fact the "Good guys" as your naysaying detractors will often say - or is that all overrated?

Good guys? lol. I'm not entirely sure what could possibly qualify either of those groups as being "good".

GK - They kill or mind wipe anyone that potentially sees them. Of course, mind wiping is a difficult and time consuming process - so that's reserved only for other marines. Everyone else dies at the end. I'm not entirely sure that this is any better than having a daemon infested space hulk wipe out a planet. You're dead either way.

SoB - They are hell bent on continuing the worst heresy possible - namely worshiping the Emperor as a god. They have Miracles and undying saints... which sounds to me like Chaos 101 type stuff. In short, they represent the pinnacle of everything that the Emperor was set against. He didn't want people worshiping him and even went out of his way to publicly humiliate an entire legion for it. So unless you are a chaos loving cultist I'm not entirely sure how you see that as Good.

Both of these factions represent the grim darkness of the far future better than any other. They are the personification of everything that is wrong with the Imperium.

SoB - They are hell bent on continuing the worst heresy possible - namely worshiping the Emperor as a god. They have Miracles and undying saints... which sounds to me like Chaos 101 type stuff. In short, they represent the pinnacle of everything that the Emperor was set against. He didn't want people worshiping him and even went out of his way to publicly humiliate an entire legion for it. So unless you are a chaos loving cultist I'm not entirely sure how you see that as Good.

Except that Faith powers are deemed such because they are not psychic in origin and bear no trace of taint, which the Inquisition has ways of detecting. From what we're given in the fluff, nothing stops the powers of Faith from working. Not Blanks, not Pariahs, not Culexus Assassins, not null-fields, not Untouchables, not anti-psy warding, nothing. So whatever it is that powers the Acts of Faith... it ain't the warp-juice that powers other psykers.

Further, it is hinted at, in several places, that the God-Emperor is well aware of what's going on in the Imperium (spoke to Inquisitor Jaq Draco, caused a Warp Storm to devour Vandire's retaliatory fleet, grants the various AoF to the Sisters, etc.). He knows people worship him. It's probably feeding him a whole lotta juice in the Warp, where emotional energy can be a physical, tangible thing, and it's probably, in part, what's keeping him active and ass-kicking.

And let's talk about the billions of people on Terra worshipping him as a god during his lifetime. The Emperor knew what people were doing, and he didn't really try to stop them. The largest (and most militant) of these cults founded the early Ecclesiarchy after his ascension to the Golden Throne.

The Word Bearers? The beef with the Word Bearers was that they were wasting time building temples and converting planets when he had built them to be a conquering army. That their time-wasting took the form of worshipping him was incidental.

 Psienesis wrote:

SoB - They are hell bent on continuing the worst heresy possible - namely worshiping the Emperor as a god. They have Miracles and undying saints... which sounds to me like Chaos 101 type stuff. In short, they represent the pinnacle of everything that the Emperor was set against. He didn't want people worshiping him and even went out of his way to publicly humiliate an entire legion for it. So unless you are a chaos loving cultist I'm not entirely sure how you see that as Good.

Except that Faith powers are deemed such because they are not psychic in origin and bear no trace of taint, which the Inquisition has ways of detecting. From what we're given in the fluff, nothing stops the powers of Faith from working. Not Blanks, not Pariahs, not Culexus Assassins, not null-fields, not Untouchables, not anti-psy warding, nothing. So whatever it is that powers the Acts of Faith... it ain't the warp-juice that powers other psykers.

We're edging again into "special snowflake" land.

But what doesn't it matter really - Ork Tech shouldn't even work but it does!

But in all seriousness - there is a kind of....haze...over the SoB players i've interacted with online vs. those who take the Horus Heresy rendition of the Emperor as 100% Truth.

Putting aside all the folks who don't give 2 cents for the Fluff (ie: the ones jumping on the Daemon Bandwagon for 7th edition )

1.) There's like this one group of folks who entered into the hobby around the Horus Heresy novels or before who have accepted Graham Mcneill's rendition of the Emperor as Supremo Rationalist Super Utopian Atheist (with a sub-debate about whether he was an inane bloody dictator or justified tyrant) as 100% True.

And they seem more than willing to take a swipe at the Resurrecting Saint and your AoF snowflake....for whatever reason. Seen it here, on Warseer, etc.etc.

2.) Then theres group 2 - the diverse lot of folks who draw a different picture of the Emperor from all the other BL novels and the GW material. All of which can support interpretations of things like "Human Mystic Farseer" to "Ultra-Pragmatist who'd do whatever it takes to Beat Chaos."

And there's enough of you SoB players who support an interpretation like yours - which reinforces the AoF special snowflake and kicks open the door to other things.....like Reincarnating Saints (Saint Sabbat from Gaunt's Ghosts anyone?)


Please understand, i'm not taking a swipe at your position or anything (tbh - I actually find it the more interesting one), but i've often found this level of friction in the fandom to be......interesting.

Its something that's a little more complex than the more common pokes/complaints about "Spiritual Lieges" or the often-echoed "the SM chapter that i chose is the BEST SM chapter ever..and all the rest of you guys suck" type of thing...

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
We're edging again into "special snowflake" land.

But what doesn't it matter really - Ork Tech shouldn't even work but it does!

To add to what Psienesis said, SoB AoFs and SoF aren't a psyker thing, and they're also not caused by some sort of mystical/magical/divine/whatever force. What the codex has them as is intense feats of willpower, their minds temporarily pushing their bodies to greaters feats. Ever heard that thing about the woman lifting a car off of her baby? Or maybe you've heard of people under hypnosis being able to undergo things like surgery without anesthetic? It's similar to that sort of thing. So, really, they're pretty mundane.

1.) There's like this one group of folks who entered into the hobby around the Horus Heresy novels or before who have accepted Graham Mcneill's rendition of the Emperor as Supremo Rationalist Super Utopian Atheist (with a sub-debate about whether he was an inane bloody dictator or justified tyrant) as 100% True.

And they seem more than willing to take a swipe at the Resurrecting Saint and your AoF snowflake....for whatever reason. Seen it here, on Warseer, etc.etc.

Like most things in 40K, absolutely nothing is guaranteed to be true. These people are taking one interpretation of the background as Gospel truth. That's their problem.

And AoF are no more "special snowflake" than ATSKNF or the various super-science tricks of the Necrons, or the entirety of the Space Wolves over the last 3 editions.

What I have always liked about the GK is that they have become the antithesis Chaos but they don't do it without cost. To just be these warriors in shiny silver armor that show up to release a world from Chaos would make them too much like a Mary Sue Superman. Instead they the last resort to the point that their use means that they need to be mind scrubbed or killed. There is a cost for their purity.