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Eldrad was fairly good, if not expensive, in 6th. Now he has some very interesting buffs.
- The fact that he gets 4 powers makes the odds of him rolling invisibility pretty good. (66%)
- His Spirit-link special rule is now more useful, since it helps the rest of your psykers manifest more powers instead of just himself

Specing Eldrad entire into telepathy makes for some very interesting choices, possibly making bad units suddenly good!
- Consider a unit of 20 storm guardians with and chances for Invisibility, Fearless (mental fortitude) and Shrouding (shrouding).
- Same goes for a unit of Banshees with power weapons.

Howling Banshees popping out of a serpent are VERY likely to withstand a flurry of incoming fire now before being able to charge, and become MUCH more survivable in combat as well.

Invisibility in general is all you'd need to make these units viable, but Eldrad in particular has a very high chance of getting it as well as the other very useful buffs. What do you guys think?

His odds of getting Invisibility are much higher than 66% as they aren't independent events. If you are going for a specific power then you never swap out powers, which means you odds off getting a specific power increase each time you roll because you can't duplicate a power. Your odds aren't linear basically.

Spirit Link is definitely much more useful now because the mechanics for psychic powers mean that it is basically impossible to reliably cast all your powers. It also means Eldrad is going to be better served by multiple Lvl 1 powers than 1 couple of big powers, at the very least try and make sure you have at least one Lvl 1 power so you can throw a single dice at if if you Spirit Link with nothing left in your pool.

The Shrouding power is very difficult to use sadly, because it requires MODELS to be within 6" not units. Its very nice for Serpent Spam lists (Shrouded + Holos gives them a 4+ without Jinking) but you won't get as much milage out of it with infantry. It does combo nicely with Invis though, as the immunity to blasts means you can cluster up safely. Really though Eldrad is never going to have enough charge to cast all his powers (no one does without bringing some form of Warp Charge battery), you want 6+ dice for Invis anyway so thinking about comboing multiple powers is a bit ambitious - you are never going to cast Mental Fortitude with Eldrad. I enjoy theory hammering my Invis, Fortuned, Prescienced Beast Pack hitting a Misfortuned and Doomed unit, but that is never going to happen.

Imo Invisibility is by far the best power in the game now, for a WC2 power it is insane - it was already a very very good power before at it has only gotten buffed. As such it will obviously make any unit it is cast on better - but that doesn't change the fact that Guardians and Banshees are still terrible units lol. Invisibility on a JetCouncil or a Beast Pack though is just rude. Its worth noting that Invis counters D weapons (which are often talk of as the counter to Deathstars), because basically every D weapon is a blast.

This doesn't even factor any of his other buffs. The change in the way first turn is determined is huge for Eldrad, because you can now deploy first, re-deploy with his ability and then CHOOSE to go first or second. This is amazing for Eldar, who want to be going second for objective grabs. You can now deploy as if you are going first, force your opponent to deploy defensively (most people premeasure and put themselves out of threat range), then pull your key units off the deployment line and leave your opponent completely out of position without the advantage of last turn to fall back on.

The math is actually accurate.
The chances of failing to roll invisibility are:
5/6, then 4/5, then 3/4, then 2/3.
math-wise, (5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)*(2/3)= 33%
a 33% chance to fail means a 66% chance to succeed.

The probabilty to succeed is calculated very easily as:
total number of unique events/total number of possibilities.
in this case there are 4 unique events with 6 possibilities.
4/6=66%.

It is called Hypergeometric Distribution.

Very good point about the first turn buffs factoring in his redeployment ability. That's very powerful.

The Eldrad point on first turn is very interesting. I had not thought about that.

To bad you cant cast powers in a wave serpent.
And if you cast powers you have already had your movement so you cant climb in to a transport after blessings are made. Kind of makes eldrad dependent of getting that invisibility going.

Powerguy wrote:
The Shrouding power is very difficult to use sadly, because it requires MODELS to be within 6" not units. Its very nice for Serpent Spam lists (Shrouded + Holos gives them a 4+ without Jinking) but you won't get as much milage out of it with infantry.

I don't get this bit. You only need one model with Shrouded to get the cover bonus for his whole unit. Sure, 6" is not a lot but if could do it with a Serpent you could also do it with 2/3 units around Eldrad own unit

Was also going through how I couod make Eldrad work. My conclusion: I would still rather have 2 farseers. 6 power vs 4. Simple as that.

Eldrad has a few things vs 2 farseers

1) 3++

2) regens warp charges 1/3 the time

3) fleshbane Ap3 force weapon

4) hes eldrad, nuff said.

Why would I waste Eldrad making a garbage unit into a better smelling garbage unit? Make good units better instead.

Despite Mythbusters' findings, you can't polish the turd that is Banshees.

I really don't understand all the hate towards banshees. Lets look at the things that made them garbage:
- No delivery system
- Could not withstand the shooting required to get into combat
- Would be attacking at same initiative as opponents on the charge when going through difficult
- Not beefy enough in combat, especially since striking at the same time.

Invisibility potentially fixes everything but the delivery system.
-enemy units must snap shot
-immunity to blasts and templates
- requires 6s to hit in combat as well, so attacking at same initiative really doesn't matter too much.
- The psyker doesn't even need to be in the unit to give them invisibility, so they can still utilize their Acrobatic ability.

Now lets compare them to the "good" units.
Cost for 5:
- Scopions:85
- Wraithblades:160
- Harlequins: 90 (110 with kisses)
- Banshees:75

Chance to wound a marine in combat
- Scorpion: 8.3% Chainsword, 11.1% Mandiblaster
- Wraithblade: 33.3% Swords, 41.6% axes
- Harlequin: 7.4% regular, 11% to rend
- Banshee: 16%

Banshees are the cheapest and put out an amount of wounds similar to the rest. The only downside is their survivability, which Invisibility pretty much fixed.

The only gamble is whether or not you can roll invisibility. As said in the OP, Eldrad has a pretty good chance of rolling himself and Farseers aren't far behind.

And against anything that is not a MEQ Banshees suffer. And there is the cost of the psyker you're not including.

And as DE said, why bother putting all that work into a banshee when you can put invisibility on something that actually kills anything it touches like a Seerstar or Wraithknight?

delivery system could be a Dark Eldar Raider

 Kain wrote:
And against anything that is not a MEQ Banshees suffer. And there is the cost of the psyker you're not including.

And as DE said, why bother putting all that work into a banshee when you can put invisibility on something that actually kills anything it touches like a Seerstar or Wraithknight?

- Banshees still hold their ground on all other opponents. Scorpions only out-damage them against 6+ save enemies.
- You would be including the psyker regardless which unit you picked
- Because points limits.
- The thread is entitled "Eldrad's utility for Bad units", not "eldrad's utility for improving already good units"

Bojazz wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And against anything that is not a MEQ Banshees suffer. And there is the cost of the psyker you're not including.

And as DE said, why bother putting all that work into a banshee when you can put invisibility on something that actually kills anything it touches like a Seerstar or Wraithknight?

- You would be including the psyker regardless which unit you picked
- Because points limits.
- The thread is entitled "Eldrad's utility for Bad units", not "eldrad's utility for improving already good units"

Wraithblades don't need invisibility to survive a turn of shooting.

And why waste an elites slot on banshees rather than put it on the seerstar your farseer was in anyway or on the wraithknight you were taking anyway?

Because not everyone plays seerstars, or even wants to play seerstars. Not everyone has 130CAD to throw at a wraithknight. This thread is not about how to win a tournament or create the most competitive list in the world. This thread is entitled "Eldrad's utility for bad units in 7th." This assumes that you will be taking these "bad units" for whatever reasons you choose, and how you can use eldrad and invisibility to improve them.

Bojazz wrote:
Not everyone has 130CAD to throw at a wraithknight.

This is terrible logic. A Wraithknight is actually one of the cheaper $$ per points option that eldar have. With the Suncannon and Scatter Laser, It clocks in at $0.38 per point. Guardians will run you about the same, but EVERY other box of aspect warriors cost more. Dire Avengers are $0.54 per point, for example. Even a full squad of 10, running an Exarch with a power sword + shimmershield will run you $0.44 per point.

Garion wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
The Shrouding power is very difficult to use sadly, because it requires MODELS to be within 6" not units. Its very nice for Serpent Spam lists (Shrouded + Holos gives them a 4+ without Jinking) but you won't get as much milage out of it with infantry.

I don't get this bit. You only need one model with Shrouded to get the cover bonus for his whole unit. Sure, 6" is not a lot but if could do it with a Serpent you could also do it with 2/3 units around Eldrad own unit

My bad, I forgot that Shrouding works the same as Stealth like this. That makes the range irrelevant as you will always be buffing your own unit at the very least - which to me further reinforces that Eldrad should be rolling on Telepathy every time. Invis is pretty much just brokenly good, Shrouding is useful (2+ cover for a Beast Pack in terrain), Terrify, Dominate and Hallucination are decent and Shriek is a very nice WC1 Primaris. Its a better bet than Fate I think as Fortune as roughly as good as Invis, but the rest of the powers aren't so great - Doom is nice and Guide is good (but its the Primaris so doesn't factor in when you are going all out for a certain power) but the rest are marginally ok witchfires (and Death Mission....).

ninjafiredragon wrote:Was also going through how I couod make Eldrad work. My conclusion: I would still rather have 2 farseers. 6 power vs 4. Simple as that.

I would rather have 7 powers rather than 6. Probably the biggest thing this gets you is 4 rolls on a single chart rather than 3, which boosts your chances of getting Invis or Fortune quite a bit.

This is terrible logic. A Wraithknight is actually one of the cheaper $$ per points option that eldar have. With the Suncannon and Scatter Laser, It clocks in at $0.38 per point. Guardians will run you about the same, but EVERY other box of aspect warriors cost more. Dire Avengers are $0.54 per point, for example. Even a full squad of 10, running an Exarch with a power sword + shimmershield will run you $0.44 per point.

It's not terrible logic at all. Casual player walks into games workshop with 130 dollars in his pocket. "You can have 40 guardians, or 15 aspect warriors, or one wraithknight". Painting enthusiasts would choose the guardians or aspect warriors so that they have more to paint and mess around with. Not everyone builds their lists on what is competitive, not everyone thinks ahead of what list they want to create, and not everyone calculates out how much each point is costing them. Some people buy models they just want to paint, and end up playing a pick up game here or there with what they have. Some people buy second hand and only have access to what they are able to find deals on. Some people simply don't like the look of the wraithknight. There are tons of reasons for people not to want to drop 130 CAD on a single model.

Bojazz wrote:

This is terrible logic. A Wraithknight is actually one of the cheaper $$ per points option that eldar have. With the Suncannon and Scatter Laser, It clocks in at $0.38 per point. Guardians will run you about the same, but EVERY other box of aspect warriors cost more. Dire Avengers are $0.54 per point, for example. Even a full squad of 10, running an Exarch with a power sword + shimmershield will run you $0.44 per point.

It's not terrible logic at all. Casual player walks into games workshop with 130 dollars in his pocket. "You can have 40 guardians, or 15 aspect warriors, or one wraithknight". Painting enthusiasts would choose the guardians or aspect warriors so that they have more to paint and mess around with. Not everyone builds their lists on what is competitive, not everyone thinks ahead of what list they want to create, and not everyone calculates out how much each point is costing them. Some people buy models they just want to paint, and end up playing a pick up game here or there with what they have. Some people buy second hand and only have access to what they are able to find deals on. Some people simply don't like the look of the wraithknight. There are tons of reasons for people not to want to drop 130 CAD on a single model.

Not wanting to drop $$ and not having $$ are two different things.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
Not everyone has 130CAD to throw at a wraithknight.

This is terrible logic. A Wraithknight is actually one of the cheaper $$ per points option that eldar have. With the Suncannon and Scatter Laser, It clocks in at $0.38 per point. Guardians will run you about the same, but EVERY other box of aspect warriors cost more. Dire Avengers are $0.54 per point, for example. Even a full squad of 10, running an Exarch with a power sword + shimmershield will run you $0.44 per point.

This is TERRIBLE Logic. You do realize that when he said not everyone has £130 he meant all at one time, right? As a 15 Year Old still in School with no official job other then what my parents give me i quite simply cannot amass £60, let alone £130 to spend on a model. So even if you get the most 'for your money' what you are buying has a much higher buy in point, putting it out of my and many others reach. Believe it or not, some people have trouble justifying to themselves about not going out with friends for the entire month because i spent all that money on a Wraithknight, which i couldn't use until the following month due to not being able to pay for the bus into Gamesworkshop...

As for Eldrad suring up units weaknesses, i plan on using him to buff up some Incubi. They always seem so good until they either die getting there or overkill in combat then get shot, maybe invisibility could change that? Am i sensing a chance to finally use Drazhar!

Not wanting to drop $$ and not having $$ are two different things.

I made points for not having $$ AND not wanting to drop $$ . Nitpicking grammar is not the best way to get a point across. The fact remains that some people do not have the money for a wraithknight, and some people do not want to spend the money they DO have on a wraithknight. Those people do, in fact, exist. This thread is getting very de-railed.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:As for Eldrad suring up units weaknesses, i plan on using him to buff up some Incubi. They always seem so good until they either die getting there or overkill in combat then get shot, maybe invisibility could change that? Am i sensing a chance to finally use Drazhar!

That sounds incredibly fun. I'm going to be using him to buff a unit of 20 basic storm guardians just to see what they can do, since I've never actually be able to get them into combat before.

Bojazz wrote:

Now lets compare them to the "good" units.
Cost for 5:
- Scopions:85
- Wraithblades:160
- Harlequins: 90 (110 with kisses)
- Banshees:75

Banshees are the cheapest and put out an amount of wounds similar to the rest. The only downside is their survivability, which Invisibility pretty much fixed.

The only gamble is whether or not you can roll invisibility. As said in the OP, Eldrad has a pretty good chance of rolling himself and Farseers aren't far behind.

So what you really meant was:
Cost for 5:
- Scopions:85
- Wraithblades:160
- Harlequins: 90 (110 with kisses)
- Banshees:280

Eldrad costs 205.

There's something Marine players like to say around these parts: "I don't care about Banshees." There are no conditions on that phrase. Banshees simply do not do enough damage over the duration of their assault compared to the damage they will receive.

Also, all of those units are bad.

 Arbiter wrote:
Eldrad has a few things vs 2 farseers

1) 3++ 6 wounds vs 4 also

2) regens warp charges 1/3 the time Still better for 2 extra warp charges

3) fleshbane Ap3 force weapon With how slow he is, I dont expect him in combat (or at least a combat I want to be in)

4) hes eldrad, nuff said.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Arbiter wrote:
Eldrad has a few things vs 2 farseers

1) 3++ 6 wounds vs 4 also

2) regens warp charges 1/3 the time Still better for 2 extra warp charges

3) fleshbane Ap3 force weapon With how slow he is, I dont expect him in combat (or at least a combat I want to be in)

4) hes eldrad, nuff said.

Unmentioned benefits of the 'Drad;

T4 - yes, jetbikes, I know.
Redeployment shenanigans.
Included Runes (25 points worth of Wargear)
ML4 - handy for DTW?
Warlord Trait - Once per game 12' Stealth Bubble. Stacks with Jink, Holofields, Aegis. Fantastic to avoid the Alpha Strike.

But mostly, he's Eldrad man. Dude has been boss since forever.

I'd not thought of Rolling on telepathy till I read this thread. Really considering putting Eldrad with a 20-man blob of guardians behind an Aegis in my backfield. Invisibility + Shrouding + Aegis means they are almost impossible to shoot. Especially to the likes of Wyverns and other blast weapons. Can't snap-shot a blast, y'know. Should anything get close, he can Shriek, Hallucination and Dominate them. Chuck in a Warlock for an extra charge, and potentially a Runes of Battle power like embolden.

Finally, Shrouding from Telepathy stacks amazingly with Eldrad's Warlord ability. If you really want to get fancy, you could go to ground in your opponent shooting phase, then Mental Fortitude your squad to 'pop-up' in your turn... Poor mans "get back in the fight" order.

My one qualm is missing out on rolling Divination or Runes of Fate. But against shooty armies, I really see the benefit in taking telepathy for the defensive buffs.

Unmentioned benefits of the 'Drad;

T4 - yes, jetbikes, I know.
Redeployment shenanigans.
Included Runes (25 points worth of Wargear)
ML4 - handy for DTW?
Warlord Trait - Once per game 12' Stealth Bubble. Stacks with Jink, Holofields, Aegis. Fantastic to avoid the Alpha Strike.

But mostly, he's Eldrad man. Dude has been boss since forever.

I'd not thought of Rolling on telepathy till I read this thread. Really considering putting Eldrad with a 20-man blob of guardians behind an Aegis in my backfield. Invisibility + Shrouding + Aegis means they are almost impossible to shoot. Especially to the likes of Wyverns and other blast weapons. Can't snap-shot a blast, y'know. Should anything get close, he can Shriek, Hallucination and Dominate them. Chuck in a Warlock for an extra charge, and potentially a Runes of Battle power like embolden.

Finally, Shrouding from Telepathy stacks amazingly with Eldrad's Warlord ability. If you really want to get fancy, you could go to ground in your opponent shooting phase, then Mental Fortitude your squad to 'pop-up' in your turn... Poor mans "get back in the fight" order.

My one qualm is missing out on rolling Divination or Runes of Fate. But against shooty armies, I really see the benefit in taking telepathy for the defensive buffs.

Thinking of it, Eldrad may give 10 model Wraithguard/blades squad a much more powerful boost! Maybe the Wraithguard + Eldrad + Asurman deathstar will be legit.

It would be pretty good. Not too sure about the need for Asurmen though. The unit is already Fearless, and he adds only a couple of extra Ap2 Attacks, where the Wraithguard already have a bunch. Baharroth for H&R would be good, along with his Blinding ability. Or even just a spiritseer w/ Guardian Helm to take care of challenges.

If I was to take Asurmen, it'd be with a Maxed squad of Dire avengers, Eldrad and a Shimmershield exarch (maybe Diresword).

Invisibility doesn't really help banshees because it doesn't do anything to answer their second biggest problem, which is dealing damage.

Even if we assume that a full strength Banshee squad makes it into combat with a tactical squad (unrealistic, as even with invisibility they're going to take one wound from the squad shooting at them and another wound from overwatch on average), it's going to take them upwards of three to four turns to grind down a tactical squad. What exactly are you accomplishing by spending 4 turns killing a unit? And after the tactical squad is dead, the Banshees will be reduced to two or three models, rendering them pretty much useless. So you've spent 4 turns killing a 140 point unit with a 150 point unit. You're not winning out, there.

Makes me sad, because Howling Banshees are my favorite unit in the codex. But it just is what it is that without a way to compensate for their strength 3, they're just a terrible unit for their points.

Bojazz wrote:
The math is actually accurate.
The chances of failing to roll invisibility are:
5/6, then 4/5, then 3/4, then 2/3.
math-wise, (5/6)*(4/5)*(3/4)*(2/3)= 33%
a 33% chance to fail means a 66% chance to succeed.

The probabilty to succeed is calculated very easily as:
total number of unique events/total number of possibilities.
in this case there are 4 unique events with 6 possibilities.
4/6=66%.

It is called Hypergeometric Distribution.

Instead of all your fancy math, you can just assume 4 rolls on telepathy, meaning 4 from 6 powers. Which equates to a 4/6 chance of rolling any particular power. 4/6*100=66.67% chance

The second section of the post you quoted says exactly that, lol.