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11th company podcast. 199.5. Math. Dang. Stuff really seems balanced.

Totally flipped my opinion on Malefic, invisibility, daemon factory, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/episodes.cfm

Is there a summary for those of us who don't want to listen to a podcast for 2 hours?

Not really. Long story short, they go through the actual table top threat Malefic and such actually present (probabilities, perils likely hood, inaction due to casting, warp charge dilution, etc)

Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

The whole crew basically sees psychic powers as far weaker in 7th than 6th... and they back it up. For those of you who dont follow the 11th company, they have serious 40k tournament street cred. They rub elbows with all the top players and TOs. If they say something isn't the next broken thing, they're simply right and you move on.

Kinda makes our freaking out look silly (present company included).

I'm still going to take Inquisitors with Psyocculum and Null Rods. Because I abhor the witch like a good little Imperial Citizen should.

And this was all play tested on how many games?

 Lobukia wrote:


Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

As good a summary as I'd want for, though I'd like to see the math. Maybe I'll set some time aside one day.

I wasn't a fan of the concept of summoning to begin with, or the psychic phase, but it was clear that in general its harder to cast most powers. As for the factory itself, I'm still going to wait a little longer until more bat reps flow in and a large tourney or two run their course.

My old IG lists for 6th often included one Primaris or two, but now...I'm contemplating just leaving them at home and spending the point on more guns and some blessed hulls for better deny rolls against targeted powers.

Still don't like Invis, but that's a different topic.

My favorite part was when they called it edition 6.5 and declared that there weren't very changes before talking about all the changes and what they mean for 3 whole hours.

Massawyrm wrote:
My favorite part was when they called it edition 6.5 and declared that there weren't very changes before talking about all the changes and what they mean for 3 whole hours.

...and this is part one of ?

But in their defense, the episode in which they covered Belakor and Cypher was almost as long, for two models.

 Lobukia wrote:
Not really. Long story short, they go through the actual table top threat Malefic and such actually present (probabilities, perils likely hood, inaction due to casting, warp charge dilution, etc)

Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

The whole crew basically sees psychic powers as far weaker in 7th than 6th... and they back it up. For those of you who dont follow the 11th company, they have serious 40k tournament street cred. They rub elbows with all the top players and TOs. If they say something isn't the next broken thing, they're simply right and you move on.

Kinda makes our freaking out look silly (present company included).

Are this the same guys that once said land speeders are useless?. or bikes, dont remember which.

I mean, i will listen to the podcast, but at face value, i have to say i will pay more attention to the guys that own a FLGS and run tournaments for a living, than a couple of guys that despite their good intentions and their anecdotal participation on some tournament here and there, are essentially just a group of friends that play the game over bear and pretzels, as stated by them on several ocations.

i do believe it would be healthier for the game and the company producing it, if we the tournament crowd walked away this edition.
Im not saying pour gasoline and burn your plastic models. Simply walk away and do not make any further purchases, just play with what you have, buy a model if you really like it. In a friendly environment, painted soda cans are acceptable drop pod.
Let the company see where they stand, and you see as if the company is ever likely to change its direction.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Not really. Long story short, they go through the actual table top threat Malefic and such actually present (probabilities, perils likely hood, inaction due to casting, warp charge dilution, etc)

Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

The whole crew basically sees psychic powers as far weaker in 7th than 6th... and they back it up. For those of you who dont follow the 11th company, they have serious 40k tournament street cred. They rub elbows with all the top players and TOs. If they say something isn't the next broken thing, they're simply right and you move on.

Kinda makes our freaking out look silly (present company included).

Are this the same guys that once said land speeders are useless?. or bikes, dont remember which.

I mean, i will listen to the podcast, but at face value, i have to say i will pay more attention to the guys that own a FLGS and run tournaments for a living, than a couple of guys that despite their good intentions and their anecdotal participation on some tournament here and there, are essentially just a group of friends that play the game over bear and pretzels, as stated by them on several ocations.

i do believe it would be healthier for the game and the company producing it, if we the tournament crowd walked away this edition.
Im not saying pour gasoline and burn your plastic models. Simply walk away and do not make any further purchases, just play with what you have, buy a model if you really like it. In a friendly environment, painted soda cans are acceptable drop pod.
Let the company see where they stand, and you see as if the company is ever likely to change its direction.

You do know that Reecius occasionally is on the 11th company. He'd kinda be part of the crowd these guys get their street cred from.

 Lobukia wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Not really. Long story short, they go through the actual table top threat Malefic and such actually present (probabilities, perils likely hood, inaction due to casting, warp charge dilution, etc)

Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

The whole crew basically sees psychic powers as far weaker in 7th than 6th... and they back it up. For those of you who dont follow the 11th company, they have serious 40k tournament street cred. They rub elbows with all the top players and TOs. If they say something isn't the next broken thing, they're simply right and you move on.

Kinda makes our freaking out look silly (present company included).

Are this the same guys that once said land speeders are useless?. or bikes, dont remember which.

I mean, i will listen to the podcast, but at face value, i have to say i will pay more attention to the guys that own a FLGS and run tournaments for a living, than a couple of guys that despite their good intentions and their anecdotal participation on some tournament here and there, are essentially just a group of friends that play the game over bear and pretzels, as stated by them on several ocations.
i do believe it would be healthier for the game and the company producing it, if we the tournament crowd walked away this edition.
Im not saying pour gasoline and burn your plastic models. Simply walk away and do not make any further purchases, just play with what you have, buy a model if you really like it. In a friendly environment, painted soda cans are acceptable drop pod.
Let the company see where they stand, and you see as if the company is ever likely to change its direction.

You do know that Reecius occasionally is on the 11th company. He'd kinda be part of the crowd these guys get their street cred from.

Would that be the same Reecius that thrashes the psi phase and objective cards on this vids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ6ilq5P564&list=UUD6cBAinJVKv50pVsKp59qA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw&index=2&list=UUD6cBAinJVKv50pVsKp59qA
The second one is pre errata allowing horrors to summon.

As i said before, i think is best if the more formal/competitive crowd lets this edition go by. Call it a "tactical retreat".

There's such a thing as blind fanboyism and an inability to see the game as anything but perfect.

But dang is there also an opposite of that.

 Lobukia wrote:
Not really. Long story short, they go through the actual table top threat Malefic and such actually present (probabilities, perils likely hood, inaction due to casting, warp charge dilution, etc)

Gilstrap's conclusion: "daemon factory?, meh... moving on".

The whole crew basically sees psychic powers as far weaker in 7th than 6th... and they back it up. For those of you who dont follow the 11th company, they have serious 40k tournament street cred. They rub elbows with all the top players and TOs. If they say something isn't the next broken thing, they're simply right and you move on.

Kinda makes our freaking out look silly (present company included).

As Blackmoor and others among us have been trying to say, Malefic is a gimmick. It's going to be Santic Daemonology that'll have everyone screaming about breaking the Psychic phase.

I don't really see anything breaking the psychic phase much honestly.

Played another game last night daemon on Daemon

We both summoned 2 Lords of Change, I got 2 squads of flamers, and my opponent 2 heralds of Tzeentch.

I also perils killed a herald, put a wound on a Chaos Sorcerer, and perils something like 5 or 6 times in 3 turns. I also sacrificed a 150 point herald for one of those Lords of chance, and my opponent gave up a Horror squad (99 points worth).

So given all that I finished the game having earned 298 points (Summons - cost of 2 heralds who died to make them) + a few points (maybe 90) from a portal glyph.

my Opponent faired better being up 530 points.

I won 6 or 7 Vps to 1.

Breng77 wrote:
I don't really see anything breaking the psychic phase much honestly.

Played another game last night daemon on Daemon

We both summoned 2 Lords of Change, I got 2 squads of flamers, and my opponent 2 heralds of Tzeentch.

I also perils killed a herald, put a wound on a Chaos Sorcerer, and perils something like 5 or 6 times in 3 turns. I also sacrificed a 150 point herald for one of those Lords of chance, and my opponent gave up a Horror squad (99 points worth).

So given all that I finished the game having earned 298 points (Summons - cost of 2 heralds who died to make them) + a few points (maybe 90) from a portal glyph.

my Opponent faired better being up 530 points.

I won 6 or 7 Vps to 1.

Your point being that as long as we're all playing daemons our books are balanced?

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I don't really see anything breaking the psychic phase much honestly.

Played another game last night daemon on Daemon

We both summoned 2 Lords of Change, I got 2 squads of flamers, and my opponent 2 heralds of Tzeentch.

I also perils killed a herald, put a wound on a Chaos Sorcerer, and perils something like 5 or 6 times in 3 turns. I also sacrificed a 150 point herald for one of those Lords of chance, and my opponent gave up a Horror squad (99 points worth).

So given all that I finished the game having earned 298 points (Summons - cost of 2 heralds who died to make them) + a few points (maybe 90) from a portal glyph.

my Opponent faired better being up 530 points.

I won 6 or 7 Vps to 1.

Your point being that as long as we're all playing daemons our books are balanced?

All that work summoning was also turns where all that psychic energy wasn't doing other things to harm the foe. Combine that with perils damage and Malefic almost zeroes itself out. I'm all about ragging on G'dub (unbound and breaking our force orgs) but this time the new mechanic actually seems to balance.

 Lobukia wrote:

All that work summoning was also turns where all that psychic energy wasn't doing other things to harm the foe. Combine that with perils damage and Malefic almost zeroes itself out. I'm all about ragging on G'dub (unbound and breaking our force orgs) but this time the new mechanic actually seems to balance.

But you didn't play a factory. You played the power the way GW intended it. If you look at their battle reports they are never optimised. They play with models no one touches with a stick.
The problem with GW balance is that they allow for abuse. Obviously, if you decide to play with your hands tied behind your back, then the power is not gonna do much.
A factory is Pink Horrors making more Pink Horrors making more Pink Horrors an nauseum.
Pink Horror units laugh at Perils. I'd love to see a battle report of two actual factories facing eachother.

 Purifier wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

All that work summoning was also turns where all that psychic energy wasn't doing other things to harm the foe. Combine that with perils damage and Malefic almost zeroes itself out. I'm all about ragging on G'dub (unbound and breaking our force orgs) but this time the new mechanic actually seems to balance.

But you didn't play a factory. You played the power the way GW intended it. If you look at their battle reports they are never optimised. They play with models no one touches with a stick.
The problem with GW balance is that they allow for abuse. Obviously, if you decide to play with your hands tied behind your back, then the power is not gonna do much.
A factory is Pink Horrors making more Pink Horrors making more Pink Horrors an nauseum.
Pink Horror units laugh at Perils. I'd love to see a battle report of two actual factories facing eachother.

Unboud of only blue scriers, say 20-25 of them. Done, broken.

Turn 1 average summoning puts you easily over 2k points.

 Purifier wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I don't really see anything breaking the psychic phase much honestly.

Played another game last night daemon on Daemon

We both summoned 2 Lords of Change, I got 2 squads of flamers, and my opponent 2 heralds of Tzeentch.

I also perils killed a herald, put a wound on a Chaos Sorcerer, and perils something like 5 or 6 times in 3 turns. I also sacrificed a 150 point herald for one of those Lords of chance, and my opponent gave up a Horror squad (99 points worth).

So given all that I finished the game having earned 298 points (Summons - cost of 2 heralds who died to make them) + a few points (maybe 90) from a portal glyph.

my Opponent faired better being up 530 points.

I won 6 or 7 Vps to 1.

Your point being that as long as we're all playing daemons our books are balanced?

Point being that it is unrealistic to expect that people are routinely doubling the size of their army at all. IF we actually looked at what was left at the end of the game. my opponent would have been down to around 1100 points from 2k and I would have been at around 1k. SO it is not as if we were summoning things faster than things were dying.

Further just using horrors to summon more horrors, does not win the game. They have no killing potential and what do they do against barrage weapon spam, or Lords of War throwing huge templates etc...

Breng77 wrote:
I don't really see anything breaking the psychic phase much honestly.

Oh Santic will break things, just wait and see...

Sanctuary alone will cause mass wailing and gnashing of teeth, especially with GK's getting near unit-wide access to that power. Add in a Priest or two for unit-wide re-rolled 2++ saves in combat for extra giggles.

I tend to agree that the deamon factory is easy to deal with. if you're doing that much summoning, what else are you doing? the answer is not a whole lot. Pink horrors can't shoot other then psykic powers, and are AWEFUL in close combat. any halfway decent army is gonna be inflicting casualites on em, and they're not gonna be doing anything.

BrianDavion wrote:
I tend to agree that the deamon factory is easy to deal with. if you're doing that much summoning, what else are you doing? the answer is not a whole lot. Pink horrors can't shoot other then psykic powers, and are AWEFUL in close combat. any halfway decent army is gonna be inflicting casualites on em, and they're not gonna be doing anything.

Well, there is the small chance of an Iridescent Horror being able to generate a shooting ability through Rewards...

As well as the new WD/FAQ entry for Exalted Flamers + multiple Combined Arms Detachments being legal, can help added some punch to those who'll still take larger units of Horrors instead of wasting time on a really awful concept like Clown Car.
Actually, those Exalted Flamers make the Blasted Standard upgrade worthwhile now, since they can Overwatch with their Pink Fire for D3 auto-hits, thus ensuring the Banner's added 2D6/S4 auto-hits trigger! Helpful for keeping that first charge from hitting home.

It's just too bad that the non-chariot Ex.Flamers can't take any Rewards for some reason.

I played my first 7th game last night, tried to give myself some Malefic without going full bore cheese, took two squads of Horrors and a ML3 Herald (plus Belakor)

I have to say, until he got mushed, Belakor was the focus of most of my priority stuff (who has telepathy remember, can't use Daemonology)

Once he was off the table, I started to use the summoning spells more.

My conclusion is that it is stronger than I suspected, but not as strong as many fear.

It helps I've implemented a club rule that all summoned models must be representative, no proxies, painted and based, should slow the FOTM players down a bit!

Summoning deamons works great against an army that doesn't have psykers. It's like a free turn to just get more troops while my Sisters just sit there and watch.