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Hey so I play chaos dwarf and run 2 mortars, which are pretty good with a slave ogre. Now the thing I was wondering my friend said it is fair but I always find it a bit cheap.

here is the scenario.
He plays empire
I play Chaos dwarf

Turn 1 he uses his horse guys to try and flank and then gets his main core "sore not sure all the names for empire" to start the march up front. Moving his seige thing up 6 inches.
Turn 1 I basically hold postion and move my k'adii to the sides ready to hit the horses if needed.

Turn 2 He measures out and trys to do a seige shot, he takes the shot then measures out scatter and so on "no idea has been to long" just say 18 inches. Keeps the rest going trys a charge misses and horses keep going.
Turn 2 I said I feel like it cheating since you already measured it out he said it fair so do it. I know the distance now " I do the same thing every game place the kadii touching the seige units then march them off their "or the shooty dwarfs, know the range from where they are to and how far they moved" His shot went 3 inches to the left of my block of troops which are 4 inches from my seige. He tryed a 10inch shot missed them by 4 inches nearly 100% to the left. So with this it is 14 inches away from my mortar. Also his horses where about 1 inch away from his seige when the game started with 2 marches they where something like 18 inches away from the seige and about 2 inches to the left. Now is this fair?

I am not sure how to do this I feel like I am cheating knowing how far they moved each turn and can just use that to base my mortars off of. He said it is fun since I try and bunker in and he trys differnt strats to break the wall but I feel kinda cheap. Oh I also run about the same amount of engineers as mortars to make sure they get the reroll

I'm not sure I understand but you can measure as many times as you want for any reason at all. You can have 30 tape measures all over the table whether you have mortars or not.

It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

If everyone who complained "This isn't fair! We're the ones with math on our side!" was brutally beaten and then mounted up on a pole, the Warhammer world would be a much better place.

Well, I play with friends, so most times we agree to let our opponent measure distances, but a few times we don't let them, and play with guesses. It is more fun than we thought.

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair.

No more unfair than bringing a really strong list or playing with a WAAC mindset. Pre-measuring is perfectly within the rules.

I'm confused... the first few pages of 8th edition state "You may make as many measurements as you'd like at any time, afterall a skilled warrior knows his own capabilities, and a skilled marksmen knows his own range" or something to that effect.

^

Yeah, that's why I was saying I'm not sure I understand. You may measure anything. You can take a tape measure and wrap it around your opponent's forehead and then call him "Big Head High Elf."

The fact you're doing it with math just means you're taking longer.

The Rulebook says that pre-measuring is allowed in warhammer so it is NOT cheating. If you dislike the rule (like I do) then make a house rule against pre measuring,

Yeah, I'm with Duke, I'm a little confused here. No offence, but the OP's post is somewhat hard to grasp.

As other people have mentioned, pre-measuring is allowed, any time and anywhere. They swapped the system of fixed charge ranges etc and no pre-measuring for a system of pre-measuring but no fixed charged ranges etc.

FWIW, I actually find this better. 7th was just loads of combat blocks edging forwards, and if you had low movement, it was a real disadvantage. It also got rid of the grey area where a player would declare something, measure it, and then linger there with the tape measure, calculating whether something else would be in range. Random cannon distance was good though.

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

Are you a cat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alex87 wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair.

No more unfair than bringing a really strong list or playing with a WAAC mindset. Pre-measuring is perfectly within the rules.

1. What is a "really strong" list? What are the criteria to say if list is strong or not?
2. Let's say I have the strongest list in the universe. So what? Every general wants to bring the best troops in the war field in order to win. Totally fair.
3. If you play friendly game, you can agree with your opponent if both armies will be very strong, or both will leave some combos/units/items etc outside so you can try new things/tactics and have a more balanced game. Totally fair.
4. How can my mindless zombies calculate if their opponent needs to roll 11 or 12 in order to charge them? Sure they are able to tell is the enemy is far (let's say 17") or close (9"); if they are close, they are significantly larger then they were when they were far away.
5. A good and experienced player, can calculate distances with naked eye. The ability of a player to make calculations with small errors, should be rewarded.

KeyserSoze wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

Are you a cat?

Are you a troll?

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

Are you a cat?

Are you a troll?

Off topic.

Try to answer my 5 issues instead of making irrelevant questions.

KeyserSoze wrote:
4. How can my mindless zombies calculate if their opponent needs to roll 11 or 12 in order to charge them? Sure they are able to tell is the enemy is far (let's say 17") or close (9"); if they are close, they are significantly larger then they were when they were far away.
5. A good and experienced player, can calculate distances with naked eye. The ability of a player to make calculations with small errors, should be rewarded.

Wilytank wrote:

If everyone who complained "This isn't fair! We're the ones with math on our side!" was brutally beaten and then mounted up on a pole, the Warhammer world would be a much better place.

QFT

KeyserSoze wrote:
4. How can my mindless zombies calculate if their opponent needs to roll 11 or 12 in order to charge them? Sure they are able to tell is the enemy is far (let's say 17") or close (9"); if they are close, they are significantly larger then they were when they were far away.

How can treemen survive without roots?

KeyserSoze wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

KeyserSoze wrote:
It's not cheating, it's just unfair. Ii doesn't feel right to have some bloodthirsty ready to kill warriors being able to calculate the exact distance they need to be so that the enemy needs to roll 6+6 to charge them and so on...
Dwarfs and Empire have mechanics who have equipment for calculating distances, but what about stupid trolls or giants?

My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

Are you a cat?

Are you a troll?

Off topic.

Try to answer my 5 issues instead of making irrelevant questions.

No, it's an incredibly relevant question. You asked how trolls and giants could judge distances, implying that they need advanced tools to do so. I'm telling you that instinctually, my cat can judge the distance he can leap to the dresser just fine. If my cat can do that, I'm pretty sure a troll can too. Have you ever played any sports? Have you had to tell yourself "Ok, I need to be exactly 3.5 feet to the left to get this next shot/pass/swing?" or what have you? You just KNOW it. So I'm not sure why you were asking if I was a cat, but the reciprocal question was just as relevant as yours.

Those five issues were not directed at me, and I'm not sure of their relevance either. I'm not interested in arguing them, for or against, I'm simply stating that it's very easily believable for any remotely sentient thing that's been brought to a battlefield to know how to judge distances themselves on a reasonable basis.

This is sorta OT but it's something we debated a long time ago in a college hallway. Do this experiment:

1. take a ball in hand. Even a ball you have never in your life handled.
2. Stand in front of a wall, including a wall you have never in your life seen.
3. bounce the ball floor->to wall->back to your hand

I can almost guarantee the SECOND time you do it, you will be within 10% of where you think it will go. Without doing a single calculation. How is this possible??? I mean, that's an absurdly accurate skill.

We are constantly doing all kinds of calculations like this. There is speculation as to whether this is instinct or learned behavior, but you can do it with almost anything. We have a lot of experience with gravity, with shapes, with airflow, with the everyday physics of life.


I had read an article about this a long time ago and we put it into practice in a college hallway. We put a coke can on the floor inside this 20 foot x 20 foot hall and we took turns throwing a bouncy ball trying to knock it over. The deal was, the ball had to hit at least 4 walls. It was very difficult, but we were all amazed just how easy it was to predict where it would go. After like 8 bounces, we obviously had no clue, but a few bounces are extremely simple to figure out and even children can do it. They just don't have the motor skills to handle it.

But if you take a ball and throw it in the air to a TODDLER, it may hit him in the face, but he's not going to miss by more than like 25%. So, you know, when your life depends on it, and you are training for this stuff, it is not out of the question you are going to have a pretty decent idea (within 2D6) of what is going to happen.

This is sily, the whole point of the rule was to remove the grey area of players declaring charges, measuring, and then using that as an advantage "premeasure" for other things (cannon shots, etc)

It has very little to do with real-world...

I can't tell you how many times I caught opponents declaring charges they couldn't make, measuring "Oopse looks like I failed" (But my cannon is 6 inches away from the charge unit, I know this from when I was moving it last turn, soo looks like I can out skill you with my accurate guess)

It's stupid. These rules are much better.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the people who think that the introduction of pre-measuring was bad for the game are the minority here.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
This is sorta OT but it's something we debated a long time ago in a college hallway. Do this experiment:

1. take a ball in hand. Even a ball you have never in your life handled.
2. Stand in front of a wall, including a wall you have never in your life seen.
3. bounce the ball floor->to wall->back to your hand

I can almost guarantee the SECOND time you do it, you will be within 10% of where you think it will go. Without doing a single calculation. How is this possible??? I mean, that's an absurdly accurate skill.

We are constantly doing all kinds of calculations like this. There is speculation as to whether this is instinct or learned behavior, but you can do it with almost anything. We have a lot of experience with gravity, with shapes, with airflow, with the everyday physics of life.

True, true. Whenever you cross a road and think "oh yeah I can get across before that car reaches me", your brain is doing some very advanced calculus. A minority of people will be able to put that down on paper but, in practice, pretty much every human being can do it from a young age. Not sure whether it would extend to trolls though, I can't imagine they have much practice at crossing roads.

KeyserSoze wrote:

1. What is a "really strong" list? What are the criteria to say if list is strong or not?

A strong list is one that maximises the amount of strong/undercosted units and/or combinations within an army book, whilst minimising the amount weak/fluffy choices. It's that simple. Every single book has examples of both. If you follow this up by asking what the criteria is for making a particular unit strong then lord help you.

2. Let's say I have the strongest list in the universe. So what? Every general wants to bring the best troops in the war field in order to win. Totally fair.

You're 100% right, that is fair. You know what else is fair? Playing by the rules. Pre-measuring is perfectly within the rules and therefore not unfair.

3. If you play friendly game, you can agree with your opponent if both armies will be very strong, or both will leave some combos/units/items etc outside so you can try new things/tactics and have a more balanced game. Totally fair.

If you play a friendly game you and your opponent can agree that pre-measuring will not be used and use house rules instead. In any other event... Pre-measuring = totally fair.

4. How can my mindless zombies calculate if their opponent needs to roll 11 or 12 in order to charge them? Sure they are able to tell is the enemy is far (let's say 17") or close (9"); if they are close, they are significantly larger then they were when they were far away.

So your mindless Zombies have binocular vision and good depth perception. Good for them. Not sure how this is relevant in any way.

5. A good and experienced player, can calculate distances with naked eye. The ability of a player to make calculations with small errors, should be rewarded.

As has been pointed out already there were numerous ways in previous additions to pre-measure without specifically pre-measuring. The new charging mechanics mean that there is a level of risk/reward to just about every charge. Personally I would rather see a player rewarded for having the balls to make a charge in which they needed to roll a decent range, rather than just by knowing they are X amount of inches away and therefore guaranteed of getting a successful charge, whilst also knowing that there is no chance their opponent can charge them in return.

Ah I forgot they changed the rules for guess weaponry in the new edition... Thats what you get for playing only with friends. My god I thought it was bad I could almost know where his men where but with measure before seige....bah. Time to get my mortars out on my skaven lol.

So sorry for the dumb question then we still played with guess range for templates ect. Not even sure if I ever knew it changed I got the new book but unless it was a new rule I drifted over it. I will still use it as guess the range because big creatures chariot blocks and so on should not be able to be measured so easily on a battlefield and I think it would make monsters useless.

Thanks anyways guys.

 Evertras wrote:
My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

You can tell from that cat's tail lashing that he was having second, third, and fourth thoughts about the entire attempt....

 Purifier wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
My cat doesn't do trigonometry to jump on the dresser, but he makes it all the same.

Failed charge, clearly.

That cabinet apparently is Dwarven made; it's obvious that it has at least two Runes of Slowness on it.