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Let’s assume we’re looking at an army consisting of a single Combined Arms Detachment with a Vengeance Battery Fortification. The owner deploys the Fortification within scoring distance of an objective.

If the Fortification survives long enough, does it count as having scored the objective?

What happens if the Fortification gets the first kill of the game by destroying the opposing Warlord and his unit? Does the owner of the Fortification score First Blood and/or Slay the Warlord?

from the 7th ed. rules:
-all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, -p112
-claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player’s army -p134
-Do not include any Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points -p133

If a building is claimed you get VP's from it. since claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player’s army -p134

So what's the point of the TERRAIN & VICTORY CONDITIONS rule on p133?

The third bullet point that you have presented, the one I believe is causing your issue, is designed for missions which award Victory Points for Enemy Units destroyed.

Buildings have this annoying habit of switching ownership during the course of the game, which can create a few problems when it comes to tallying how many Units where destroyed by each side once the game is over. Neutral Buildings in particular, for they don't technically belong to either side so it will lead to other arguments when it comes to tallying up whom they count against. Therefore it makes sense for a Restriction to exist that states Buildings can not generate Victory Points, if for nothing more then to try and avoid these sort of situations.

As I doubt anyone would like to lose a close game because the enemy targeted an empty run down house that happened to be garrisoned turns ago....

Thanks, JinxDragon. That helps.

If this is the case, would that mean that you could deploy only Fortifications at the start of a game and reserve everything else? Or would that give your opponent a Sudden Death Victory?

There is a different Restriction which addresses that matter, stating that Buildings are not included when it comes to verifying if a player is 'Tabled.'
The Building will need at least one Unit inside of it.

So since Vengeance Batteries are automated only, you automatically lose if that's all you have on the board to start with. Am I getting that right?

Correct.

So destroying non-purchased but claimed buildings won’t get you Victory Points for the kill. Can destroying a purchased Fortification get you First Blood? Could you get First Blood for destroying a fortification that started off as neutral, but was later claimed by a player?

The follow up questions to those have me pondering, I will let some other people post for a few while I digest these thoughts.

SKWAAAARK wrote:
So destroying non-purchased but claimed buildings won’t get you Victory Points for the kill. Can destroying a purchased Fortification get you First Blood? Could you get First Blood for destroying a fortification that started off as neutral, but was later claimed by a player?

No, they don't award victory points. See terrain & victory conditions.

Here’s an example that I think might help me understand:

Let’s say I have first player turn. My Vengeance Battery kills the enemy Warlord and his unit. They’re the only things that die that turn. On my opponent’s turn, they destroy the Vengeance and nothing else. On turn 2, one of my infantry squads wipes out an enemy infantry squad. Nothing else dies.

How many points do we have?

A. The score is 0-1. I have 0 points, because the Vengeance is terrain, and kills by terrain can’t score points for Slay the Warlord and First Blood. My opponent gets 1 (First Blood) for killing the Vengeance.

B. The score is 0-0. I have 0 points, because the Vengeance is terrain, and kills by terrain can’t score points for Slay the Warlord and First Blood. My opponent doesn’t get First Blood because the only thing they killed was terrain, and kills of terrain don’t result in points. I don’t get First Blood for my turn 2 kill, because it wasn’t the first unit of any kind to be destroyed that game.

C. The score is 1-0. I have 1 point, because the only kill that occurred other than terrain-related kills was the turn 2 infantry kill, therefore I get First Blood.

D. The score is 2-0. I have 2 points for Slay the Warlord and First Blood, because the TERRAIN & VICTORY CONDITIONS rule on p133 covers situations like units dying from neutral dangerous terrain, and doesn't include Fortifications purchased as part of an army.

D. The only requirement to get first blood is one of your opponents units needs to die first. How it dies is irrelevant, he can even kill one of his units and you'll still get first blood.

So the Victory Points part of the terrain rule on p133 only matters in Purge the Alien? Kills by my fortifications earn points, because my points come from enemies dying, as opposed to the actions I take to kill them. Blowing up fortifications doesn’t earn points, because of p133. Do I have it now?

Correct

We have directly contradictory rules, likely because GW was not very careful in what words they used when writing them.


Its says "do not include any citadel scenery when awarding Victory Points"

Yet claimed buildings are also considered scoring, and thus can, theoretically, gain VP from controlling objectives.

Further, claimed buildings are considered a unit in your army, so destroying one should give FB to your opponent.


These rules don't work together.....


What seems most reasonable to me, is they used too broad of terminology when instructing "do not include Citadel scenery".
I think it is noteworthy that this sentence i the *only* sentence in a section titled: "Terrain and Victory Conditions"

coredump wrote:

We have directly contradictory rules, likely because GW was not very careful in what words they used when writing them.


Its says "do not include any citadel scenery when awarding Victory Points"

Yet claimed buildings are also considered scoring, and thus can, theoretically, gain VP from controlling objectives.

Further, claimed buildings are considered a unit in your army, so destroying one should give FB to your opponent.


These rules don't work together.....


What seems most reasonable to me, is they used too broad of terminology when instructing "do not include Citadel scenery".
I think it is noteworthy that this sentence i the *only* sentence in a section titled: "Terrain and Victory Conditions"

Use homemade scenery, thus avoiding the Citadel scenery restriction.

The question I keep pondering:
A building is destroyed as the first 'casualty' of a battle.
Can First Blood ever be awarded at that point?

This stems from the fact that Buildings use a lot of 'count as' Terminology, instructions designed so we would be able to resolve things like Shooting or Assaulting against a Building. This soft of Terminology is greatly limited to the scope of the Rule itself, it is not possible to treat X as Y for Shooting if a Rule states to treat X as Y for Assault for example. In this situation we have a Rule stating that Units do not generate Victory Points, which would be greatly different from a Rule stating that Buildings do not count as destroyed Units for Victory Points. That raises the possibility of it counting as the first destroyed Unit, just one which is worth 0 points, so every Unit afterwards is the second... third... fourth and so on.

JinxDragon wrote:
The question I keep pondering:
A building is destroyed as the first 'casualty' of a battle.
Can First Blood ever be awarded at that point?

This stems from the fact that Buildings use a lot of 'count as' Terminology, instructions designed so we would be able to resolve things like Shooting or Assaulting against a Building. This soft of Terminology is greatly limited to the scope of the Rule itself, it is not possible to treat X as Y for Shooting if a Rule states to treat X as Y for Assault for example. In this situation we have a Rule stating that Units do not generate Victory Points, which would be greatly different from a Rule stating that Buildings do not count as destroyed Units for Victory Points. That raises the possibility of it counting as the first destroyed Unit, just one which is worth 0 points, so every Unit afterwards is the second... third... fourth and so on.

Is a building a unit, if so then yeah if you kill it first I can see FB, but you'd need to convince your opponent of this

Zodiark,
The problem wasn't the Victory Point generated in that scenario, it was what occurs when a non-Building Unit is destroyed next.
Either the Building counts as first blood, though one that grants 0 Victory Points or the Building doesn't, and the second Unit destroyed generates the Victory Point.

JinxDragon wrote:
Zodiark,
The problem wasn't the Victory Point generated in that scenario, it was what occurs when a non-Building Unit is destroyed next.
Either the Building counts as first blood, though one that grants 0 Victory Points or the Building doesn't, and the second Unit destroyed generates the Victory Point.

No I know. But First Blood requires a unit to be destroyed. If a building is a unit then FB is allowed, if it is not considered a unit then FB is not allowed.

It still couldn't generate a Victory Point thanks to that Restriction, so it would be lost.

Except....

We *know* the rules don't work as written.

Claimed buildings score objectives... but they don't give victory points..... wut??

Something is not right. I believe it is the section saying to ignore the scenery for victory points. If claimed buildings can give VP from controlling an objective, they should be able to get, and give, First Blood.

I'm thinking there's a difference between "Citadel Scenery" and "Fortifications".

so if you bought it, it's a unit of your army

if you wander over to a building that was already there and the building gets blown up, though, that's not first blood. nor is it a VP for whatever the "kill each other" gametype is called nowadays.

Some Bloke,
The problem stems form the section right under the part defining what Citadel Scenery is, detailing Fortifications and beginning by stating 'Some Pieces of Scenery....' Buildings, the most common type of Fortification which causes these issues, are also defined within the Terrain Section which has an introduction explaining that it is detailing Citadel Scenery. Given that many Rules trace back to Fortifications being Scenery, and these restrictions exist on all Scenery must also apply to Fortifications until the Authors give us a Specific Exception allowing us to ignore said Restrictions. Something along the lines that Buildings purchased as part of an Army do not count towards this Restriction would be nice.

We seem to be following the same chain of logic.
Fortifications are described as both “scenery” and as “units.”
It seems to me that in the case of a Fortification blowing up before anything else, neither player can ever get First Blood, because the destruction of scenery does not generate Victory Points, and anything destroyed later in the game would not be the first unit of any kind to be destroyed.