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So yadda yadda jink sucks yadda yadda but I noticed something. you don't have to move to get jink! combined with the Waveserpeant's holofields and it has a 3+ cover against anything before it even moved. granted it can't shoot well but if your moving a wraith squad up the board you want your transport to be neigh unkillable. 3+ cover and 2+ glancing makes it pretty much that. Combined with scoring and It's just un fun to think about.


is my assessment right?

Yes. Massively.

also, on the odd chance you do get penned, less chance to hurt the guys inside.

Yes they made an already OP unit better - brilliant work

Its transport ability isn't what most people complain about. Its gunship ability is.

Both were buffed, but the buffs certainly do more for its use as a transport than a gunship.

I think because of jink rule changes its offensive fire power is reduce greatly. In order to maintain its hard to kill reputation it has to give up its fire power, which in my opinion is a nerf.

There is a trade off with the Serpent. Its average Offensive potential was reduced with the new Jink Rules, but while jinking it is tougher to kill. So, their Transport Function received a massive boost, as did every single Dedicated Troop Transport in the game. The most common way of killing them was HP stripping before, this is definitely still the case.

That being said, despite a small reduction in firepower the ability to be Objective Secured is a massive boost. Wave Serpents will be kings this edition, not for their offense, but for objective secured.

They had a net gain, but other Transports ie Rhinos, Razorbacks, Night Scythes, and especially OS Land Raiders all received a relatively larger boost.

Wave Serpents went from Great to Amazing.

Night Scythes went from Good to More Good.

Rhinos went from Liability to Good.

Drop Pods went from Liability to Good.

BA Land Raiders went from Meh to OMG.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
combined with the Waveserpeant's holofields and it has a 3+ cover against anything before it even moved.

Holofields only give a +1 cover if you have moved in the previous turn.

I agree with zagman every vehicle got better, what made the serpent different is its offense and defense, now its one or the other which is worse in my opinion. Rhinos never had offense so it has gotten a lot better compared to the serpent which has lost something.

 Zagman wrote:

BA Land Raiders went from Meh to OMG.

Why specifically? BA Land Raiders aren't fast.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

BA Land Raiders went from Meh to OMG.

Why specifically? BA Land Raiders aren't fast.

Lol, because for ~325pts I can put an assault squad in its Dedicated Transport LRC with a Multimelta. Gives me passable firepower, optional AT, all in an AV14 frame. And as a Dedicated Transport for troops in a CAD it gains the benefit of Objective Secured.

Objective Secured Land Raider. OMG.

Plus AV14 is very counter meta currently, most armies struggle to take out one LR, let alone 2-3 Objective Secured LRs.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
So yadda yadda jink sucks yadda yadda but I noticed something. you don't have to move to get jink! combined with the Waveserpeant's holofields and it has a 3+ cover against anything before it even moved. granted it can't shoot well but if your moving a wraith squad up the board you want your transport to be neigh unkillable. 3+ cover and 2+ glancing makes it pretty much that. Combined with scoring and It's just un fun to think about.


is my assessment right?

Holo Fields requires the serpent to move before it gets the +1

Hey guys, I have a question. In 6th, it was quite clear that a unit inside a transport couldn't control/deny an objective. In 7th, that line was reduced to units embarked inside a zooming flyer. So, if a Troops unit inside a vehicle (being its DT or not) that is within 3" of an objective still captures/denies it?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Hey guys, I have a question. In 6th, it was quite clear that a unit inside a transport couldn't control/deny an objective. In 7th, that line was reduced to units embarked inside a zooming flyer. So, if a Troops unit inside a vehicle (being its DT or not) that is within 3" of an objective still captures/denies it?

Remember that everything that is not a Swooping MC or Zooming Flyer(or embarked unit) or is falling back, or an unclaimed building.

So that transport scores, and if it was bought for troops then it is Objective Secured Scoring in a Battle Forged List with or without the troops inside of it.

Now, if you happened to put Objective Secured Troops into a different transport they would still be Objective Secured from inside.

 CKO wrote:
I think because of jink rule changes its offensive fire power is reduce greatly. In order to maintain its hard to kill reputation it has to give up its fire power, which in my opinion is a nerf.

Came to post basically. Yes they got a buff in survivability, but to get that buff their firepower was hideously nerfed. It's a pretty fair trade off and just like psychic powers knee jerk reaction have people thinking something that really isn't the case(that they're both OP)

Chancetragedy wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I think because of jink rule changes its offensive fire power is reduce greatly. In order to maintain its hard to kill reputation it has to give up its fire power, which in my opinion is a nerf.

Came to post basically. Yes they got a buff in survivability, but to get that buff their firepower was hideously nerfed. It's a pretty fair trade off and just like psychic powers knee jerk reaction have people thinking something that really isn't the case(that they're both OP)

Not really - it massively increased survivability at the owners choosing - and now gets it first turn and can avoid alpha strike - huge bonus. It gets much worse when there are multiple Wave Serpents as you have to throw such a vast amount of firepower at them to have a chance of killing them that the others don't get shot at and then shred your own transports with laughable ease from long range.

It is also a Super scoring unit - unless you increased its already good armour there's not much more you can do to make it better...............

The Wave Serpent was already OP - its now gone beyond that.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
combined with the Waveserpeant's holofields and it has a 3+ cover against anything before it even moved.

Holofields only give a +1 cover if you have moved in the previous turn.

Correct, which is why I am going to stop using my holo fields on my serpents

What they specifically nerfed was wave serpent spam. They no longer get to be both tough and shooty at the same time. The troop inside matters more because you have to rely on its fire power more. I don't see 6 serpent lists continuing. It's still a great transport for wraiths and fire dragons.

It is still very weak to melee. Your average point is 9 Str 5 WS 4 attacks to kill a wave. That's not uncommon by any means. And since everything and it's brother can score now, I see assaulting objectives as a lot more viable.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not really - it massively increased survivability at the owners choosing - and now gets it first turn and can avoid alpha strike - huge bonus.

This massively increased survivability cost them their offense considering a spam list only has around 6 serpents each one hitting on a 6 is a bad thing. You could always avoid alpha strike with wave serpents because of terrain, long range, and its shield wave serpents have never truly been afraid of alpha strike.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It gets much worse when there are multiple Wave Serpents as you have to throw such a vast amount of firepower at them to have a chance of killing them that the others don't get shot at and then shred your own transports with laughable ease from long range.

You don't kill all of them you kill one and make another jink 2 a turn is all you need.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It is also a Super scoring unit - unless you increased its already good armour there's not much more you can do to make it better...............

Everything scores so what makes it different? Everything technically has a shield now right? It went from a 4+ on the move to sacrificing its shooting it got weaker scoring is a benefit everything got.

Why is scoring all of a sudden a bonus? Its like pepsi and coke saying you drink our products you will not be thirsty anymore, its a given.

It did absolutely nothing bad for the wave serpent. You don't have to choose between jink and superior firepower because you shouldn't be jinking at all unless you are out in the open somehow. Wave serpents have always been able to get a cover save simply by making sure there is cover between your serpent and whoever is firing at it.

If you use cover along with holo fields, you get the same save as a jink (except if you don't go first), and you also get to use your amazing firepower as well.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
It did absolutely nothing bad for the wave serpent. You don't have to choose between jink and superior firepower because you shouldn't be jinking at all unless you are out in the open somehow. Wave serpents have always been able to get a cover save simply by making sure there is cover between your serpent and whoever is firing at it.

If you use cover along with holo fields, you get the same save as a jink (except if you don't go first), and you also get to use your amazing firepower as well.

As was noted above, you have a 24" range in the prime configuration (SL, SC, Holofield). That isn't enough range to hide in cover. The serpent was powerful because it took its cover with it down the board. With that gone, you have to pick: decent tank or tough transport.

I've been using them just fine with only a 24 inch range. Why is that somehow not enough range to use cover? I've used ruins, wrecked vehicles, still functioning vehicles, buildings and many other things for cover. It works just fine. The only time I ever jink with a wave serpent is when i absolutely have to.

Dessorag wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
It did absolutely nothing bad for the wave serpent. You don't have to choose between jink and superior firepower because you shouldn't be jinking at all unless you are out in the open somehow. Wave serpents have always been able to get a cover save simply by making sure there is cover between your serpent and whoever is firing at it.

If you use cover along with holo fields, you get the same save as a jink (except if you don't go first), and you also get to use your amazing firepower as well.

As was noted above, you have a 24" range in the prime configuration (SL, SC, Holofield). That isn't enough range to hide in cover. The serpent was powerful because it took its cover with it down the board. With that gone, you have to pick: decent tank or tough transport.

3 words

Ghost walk Matrix

 CKO wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not really - it massively increased survivability at the owners choosing - and now gets it first turn and can avoid alpha strike - huge bonus.

This massively increased survivability cost them their offense considering a spam list only has around 6 serpents each one hitting on a 6 is a bad thing. You could always avoid alpha strike with wave serpents because of terrain, long range, and its shield wave serpents have never truly been afraid of alpha strike.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It gets much worse when there are multiple Wave Serpents as you have to throw such a vast amount of firepower at them to have a chance of killing them that the others don't get shot at and then shred your own transports with laughable ease from long range.

You don't kill all of them you kill one and make another jink 2 a turn is all you need.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It is also a Super scoring unit - unless you increased its already good armour there's not much more you can do to make it better...............

Everything scores so what makes it different? Everything technically has a shield now right? It went from a 4+ on the move to sacrificing its shooting it got weaker scoring is a benefit everything got.

Why is scoring all of a sudden a bonus? Its like pepsi and coke saying you drink our products you will not be thirsty anymore, its a given.

A Spam unit Only has 6 Serpents - which each kill an opposing transport - as your self said you might make one jink and "only" snap fire with their cover ignoring weapon and the rest unleash hell.

whats this about everyone getting a 4+ save - my Raiders and Ravagers and Cheese Serpents do - Rhinos and Immalotors don't - and they are the perfect prey for Serpents.

Its super scoring as its a Troops unit which as I understand it in 7th Ed is much better in certain armies?

Its better in every way.

 CKO wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Not really - it massively increased survivability at the owners choosing - and now gets it first turn and can avoid alpha strike - huge bonus.

This massively increased survivability cost them their offense considering a spam list only has around 6 serpents each one hitting on a 6 is a bad thing. You could always avoid alpha strike with wave serpents because of terrain, long range, and its shield wave serpents have never truly been afraid of alpha strike.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It gets much worse when there are multiple Wave Serpents as you have to throw such a vast amount of firepower at them to have a chance of killing them that the others don't get shot at and then shred your own transports with laughable ease from long range.

You don't kill all of them you kill one and make another jink 2 a turn is all you need.

 Mr Morden wrote:
It is also a Super scoring unit - unless you increased its already good armour there's not much more you can do to make it better...............

Everything scores so what makes it different? Everything technically has a shield now right? It went from a 4+ on the move to sacrificing its shooting it got weaker scoring is a benefit everything got.

Why is scoring all of a sudden a bonus? Its like pepsi and coke saying you drink our products you will not be thirsty anymore, its a given.

And this is incorrect.

If your facing 6 wave serpents, theres no way your getting all 6 to jink. that means having enough fire power to down each and every waveserpent, and somehow they are all out of cover. Not heppening. You migth get 1-2 wave serpents to jink, but other than that, the rest will still be hitting on re rollable 3s. Also dont forget the wave serpent is basically twin linked, and so even if it does have to snap fire, it can do it twin linked style. Doubling the amount of hits.

Everything scores, but not everything has objective securred. Re read the rules, then post.

 Mr Morden wrote:
A Spam unit Only has 6 Serpents - which each kill an opposing transport - as your self said you might make one jink and "only" snap fire with their cover ignoring weapon and the rest unleash hell.

You can kill1 and make 1 jink if you can do that in 1 turn you are fine. I am pretty certain that a tourney list can do this.

 Mr Morden wrote:
whats this about everyone getting a 4+ save - my Raiders and Ravagers and Cheese Serpents do - Rhinos and Immalotors don't - and they are the perfect prey for Serpents.

The thread is asking if they got a buff? In 6th ed the serpent had a 4+ save on the move that's where that is coming from. Serpents are good they are not op serpents are not going to single handily win you games. The return of high armour value vehicles will also be a huge problem for serpents.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its super scoring as its a Troops unit which as I understand it in 7th Ed is much better in certain armies?

Objective secured makes you better than others at scoring but not super. If you are trying to secure an objective with them than they will die in cc I saw a game on youtube stomping grounds tactics(best source for competitive players) where serpents were not able to do enough damage.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its better in every way.

If you lose your free cover save how did it get better? You still have it if you want to give up your fire power.

Also jink is not guaranteed. If something scatters onto it, or they are not the target they dont get to jink.

Again, as I already said, you give up nothing. Wave serpents only jink if they have no other choice. If you were facing me i can get every single wave serpent a 4+ cover save that isn't from jinking and I would still be able to use the scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, and serpent shield as a weapon almost every single turn.

It is incredibly rare that serpents have to jink at all. Usually only if they are going 2nd and haven't had a chance to move yet.

Saying serpents have to choose between firepower and jinking is a myth. A good eldar player only jinks when absolutely necessary.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Again, as I already said, you give up nothing. Wave serpents only jink if they have no other choice. If you were facing me i can get every single wave serpent a 4+ cover save that isn't from jinking and I would still be able to use the scatter lasers, shuriken cannon, and serpent shield as a weapon almost every single turn.

It is incredibly rare that serpents have to jink at all. Usually only if they are going 2nd and haven't had a chance to move yet.

Saying serpents have to choose between firepower and jinking is a myth. A good eldar player only jinks when absolutely necessary.

I am failing to see where all these serpents are going to be getting this 4+ cover while also having good lines of fire for all of them. Especially if there is a significant amount of barrage or FMCs

In addition 4+ cover is nothing to write home about. Without the shield to protect you from pens you are still going to drop pretty quick.

Ruins, holo fields, ghostwalk matrix and target priority as the eldar move forward. You focus on the things that can kill serpents easily and use cover to its maximum effect.

Trust me, it works.

And as far as pens go, yes, you'll do a hull point but spirit stones can make serpents ignore results 1 through 4 on the table. That ups their survivability by quite a bit. Certainly long enough for the serpent to deliver its deadly payload before it gets destroyed.