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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

And thats the fundamental issue. Each army has strengths in different choices. Some are strong in troops. Some are strong in HS. Some are strong in FA. But limiting to set piece situation hurts somebody. Add in the fact that if you ask each person in the tourney what is comp you'll get a completely different answer and its a twitchy system.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof




Da Green Mountains

Foil is right, comp rules need to be different for every army. As such, it needs to be written in to the Codex. That is the only way. Game Development, like other games that have a big tournament following (Magic), need to look at a Codex and think about what kind of armies they are allowing. If they don't want 5 man Dire Avenger squads in Wave Serpents, then that should be written in as a "3 max", or a larger minimum size squads. It should not have to be dictated by players, that is just ridiculous.

If they didn't want the game getting competitive, they shouldn't have started the GTs, or the RTT circuit.

Comp is easily put in to the codex, and that is where it belongs. It certainly doesn't belong as a grade in a tournament.

engine

www.pbase.com/ordoxenos
Stop by and check it out. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

Again, can you give me an example of a "poor" troop unit in the game? Of course they are going to be poor compared to say termies or obliterators, but they are troops for crying out loud. Im just mystified at this point. TBH limit any non-troop choice to 0-1 or 0-2 and this would be done with
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Your basic eldar Guardian or Imperial Guardsman.

Compare everything to a 6 man las/plas marine suad and you'll get an idea.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Dark Eldar Warriors & Gaunts come to mind. Tau, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Imperial Guard, & Tyranids suffer from having extra restrictions put on them. Chaos, Witch hunters, & Deamon Hunters get bland. Space Marines, Necrons, and Orks are the winners in this case. So if you really want to increase the number of Space Marine armies this is the way to go.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

I can make an argument that almost all troops are good if you know how to use them.

But to answer the chesse question, anything that can kill marines are cheesy.

I play with Darrian13 alot at RTTs, and no one even looks twice at his 14 assault cannon army of death. While I take a little bug tyranid horde (lots of guants, hormaguants, and genestealers) and I get a worse comp score than him.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



In El PAso, TX <Need players around here

I alway's liked the comp rules they had in what was it finland a couple years back for WHFB. Where you start with a base amount of points, get dinged or added depending on what choices you made. You could still make a really nice list and only be dinged a little, and those who got points boost needed it because you could still steamroll em.
But I'll admit if that isn't an option I'd rather see comp die. I'm tired of getting dinged for 3 exorcists or falcons in 40k and even more so for maxing out on special and rare choices in my TK. God forbid i don't want to rely soley on 9 pt goblins.

Hey, all I know this isn't very interesting but I moved to El Paso, TX AKA nowheresville so if you live here or Las Cruces and wanna game PM me sometime! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




South Pasadena

Blackmoor, the differenece between us is not the army, it is the skill level. You keep crushing your opponents and making them cry. It is no wonder why people dock you on soft-scores.

Often, the reasons I win are because of pure luck and a strong list. My opponents usually feel that they had a good chance of winning. I am not sure that yours feel the same way.

Darrian

 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Just get rid of Comp scores. Stop adding more and more restrictions. Is it any wonder people dont go to tournies that often. I have seen people go to tournies once and never again.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

The problem (that has been stated) is that GW writes crappy rules.

Everyone wants to go to the no-comp UK standard,but in their tournements, only a few armies are at the top tables. I don't want to see the US GTs go that way where everyone starts to bring Iron Warriors.

I would like to see some kind of affirmative action for the weaker codexes.

But player judging is not the way to do it. For example: a lot of people think there is no way to cheese up the Thousand Sons, but I have a lot of bad comp scores to prove it! It is one thing to look over the army list and say that it is weak, but when you ask someone to judge if the army is well comped after you just wiped them off the the table, it will always get a poor score whether or not you have brought a cheesy army.


 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Its true most Uk tournies I have been t have been won by Iron warriors or Eldar. the last one I went to suprisingly did not have any Iron warrior (very odd indeed) but was won by a Chaos army non the less. followed by Eldar.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Posted By Crimson Devil on 12/11/2006 4:56 PM
So if you really want to increase the number of Space Marine armies this is the way to go.
Is that even possible at this point?


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

I like the fact that I have the ability to directly affect the outcome of my opponents score, since his list affects my enjoyment of the game. Maybe I am stubborn because I have a clear definition of what "cheesy" to me would be, and that I can objectively judge comp scores.

There really is no easy fix, but without limitations by GW ruleset I forsee comp scores to stay
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

What's your definition of cheesy moosie? 

 

-How would you rate an armored company list with commander, tank ace, two ST squads, 1 sentinel squadron, 1 hellhound, 1 demolisher, 2 vanquishers and 2 Leman Russ?

 

-How about an IW list with 2 oblits and 4 heavy supports?  9 oblits and one heavy

 

-Undivided chaos list with 3 infiltrating squads and the remainder in bloodletters and demon prince?

 

-IG troopy SAFH with 18 lascannons and 12 heavy bolters with rough riders and maxed plasma? How about if maxed melta?

 

 


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






South NJ/Philly

Since when is comp staying?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/118319/Default.aspx

The US GT's next year will only have Sports scores, not comp. Maybe in some RTT's they'll have comp and all that, but it won't be at the biggest events I think.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Quiet Voodoo, your use of facts and logic is just getting in the way of a good argument.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

I could not rate half of the example you have listed because I have yet to play them. But could you not agree part of sportsmanship is creating a balanced list, not a cheaped out min/max list?

The only list on your list I have actually played is the maxed plas/las shooty IG. It is a *female dog* to fight, and yes I would consider that to be a wee bit cheesy. There should be a max number of heavy weapons allowed in any list to prevent min/maxing. Iron Warriors get 4 heavy choices? Fine restrict them to 2 elites or require additional troop choices to go beyond the 3 heayv choices (ie for every heavy choice after 3, 2 more troops are required for 1 additional heavy)

And jfrazell has it right, stop with your logic and let the arguers argue!
   
Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




I always have a nice comp score even though (shhh its a big secret) I have been using min size squads all over my LatD. I guess its all in the presentation.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

yea your min troop choice is also like what 60 zombies? =p
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Someones cheasy list does not stop me having a good game, the person being an arrogent Nob does.

I personally dont see the problem with any of the examples jfrazel has given, In fact the IW usuallly have 9 oblit and 4 heavey support.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By moosifer on 12/12/2006 7:27 AM
I could not rate half of the example you have listed because I have yet to play them. But could you not agree part of sportsmanship is creating a balanced list, not a cheaped out min/max list?

The only list on your list I have actually played is the maxed plas/las shooty IG. It is a *female dog* to fight, and yes I would consider that to be a wee bit cheesy. There should be a max number of heavy weapons allowed in any list to prevent min/maxing. Iron Warriors get 4 heavy choices? Fine restrict them to 2 elites or require additional troop choices to go beyond the 3 heayv choices (ie for every heavy choice after 3, 2 more troops are required for 1 additional heavy)

And jfrazell has it right, stop with your logic and let the arguers argue!

So, what happens if you go up against these armies that you've never played before and get owned? Are you going to ding their composition because you didn't think of a good strategy to fight them and therefore conclude that they're cheesey?

And what kind of rationale is that for the IW? If you only have a vague idea about an army and its components you're going to make an on the spot judgment about their list and what they need to do to make it fluffy?

I wouldn't consider a guard SAFH cheesey.

There you go using your ?common sense? again.
-Mannahnin 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By moosifer on 12/12/2006 7:27 AM
But could you not agree part of sportsmanship is creating a balanced list, not a cheaped out min/max list?


I don't agree with this statement at all. If it were true, why are there separate scores for sportsmanship and composition?

There you go using your ?common sense? again.
-Mannahnin 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By the_trooper on 12/12/2006 7:43 AM
I always have a nice comp score even though (shhh its a big secret) I have been using min size squads all over my LatD. I guess its all in the presentation.

Your trick with placing all your 5 man traitor guard squads right on top of each other so they look like 10 man formations is pretty good too.


There you go using your ?common sense? again.
-Mannahnin 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

well in moosifars case any army that beets him is cheesy. Even if its a basic list ie cheap Hq, 6 troops choices with max figure but no upgrades or special/heavy weapons.

Also sportmanship does not depend on list. A person can be sporting and fun to play despite his killer list.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

Well I will give an example of a list i fought and never played again. Min Plas/Las Tact Squads, assault cannons up the wazoo, 2 vindicators. I was wiped off the board by turn two. Now I am not always the best and most tactical player in the world but if I play a list and lose in 2 turns of shooting, there is something totally cheesey about it.

I will fight to the death that balance needs to be achieved by GW. It is not by giving over powering weapons, or giving everyone the same thing, but by limiting units to certain amounts (ie 0-1, 0-2) that there will no longer have ot be a comp score or the like given.

Im headed to baltimore this year and hopefully wont run into a zillion lysander wing, SAFH with 18 las cannons and 12 HB's, min/maxed daemonbombs, IW with gazillions of bassies and the like. But if I do, I will grade them on how they play and give them the best score I feel I can give them. With a list I would consider cheesy, if the player is a total tool about it, you damn right Im giving em low scores, but if they are respectful and the like, how am I gonna dock them points? How can I ethically do that, without ruining my integrity.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

It's probably been said already, but the issue with comp is that you get losers that will zero someone just for beating them, regardless of WHAT their army looks like. Giving such a mechanic to the players is a mistake IMO, especially when it can affect your standing in the tourney. I have heard horror stories about people with good armies that are great tacticians steamrolling opponents only to lose the top spot because opponents have dinged them on comp just so they wouldn't win!

I mean yeah, something should keep the cheesey armies in line so there isn't a situation like the Necron player who fought some cheeseweasel and had his army phased out before his first turn, but the comp system is WAY too open to abuse and has far too much potential to screw players just because you beat the snot out of some arrogant git and he decided to zero you in Sports/Comp to lower your ranking.


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

Help Help Im being repressed!!!
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Its a wonder you actually play any games moosifar with that attitude. All you will get at the tournies is lysander wing, AC chease list as they are competitive lists and you ARE after all going to a Competition.

Next time use cover and you might not get shot to peices by turn 2, or learn to play a bit better

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Hence my reason for putting those up (plus I’ve played three of those).  Here’s the rub.  Any list using 40% troops as a requirement could be met by all those lists, ironically except the AC.  

 

-The SAFH list is not SAFH. I could pack much more in the way of painful hurley burley. I also could still have double the number of troop squads vs. HS or elites (I think-its been a long time since I played it and only for a game or two).  There are some who say that list is non-comp because there are too many troops (WTF???) or too many heavy weapons (no matter how many troops). You often can’t win.

 

-The AC list is least comp not because of all the tanks, but because of too few tanks.  Its actually min maxed on the Leman “troop” choices.  Yet it would most likely get dinged for the tanks. If I brought an all tanks list its would still get dinged heavily, despite meeting every comp thing you can think of.

 

Not picking on you Moosie, it just excellently illustrates the problem. Without the lists being absolutely fixed there are going to be issues with comp. Add each person’s unique viewpoint on comp and it gets squiggelly fast.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

Thats why it would be better to do away with comp scores. Take that power away from the gamers as like others have already stated a sore loser will vent his frustration through that.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
 
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