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Certainly it is. Unjust rules or laws should always be broken.

Or are you saying it was unethical for those nice people to hide Anne Frank?

Now we finally know what exactly is an epiphany.

- G

Posted By mauleed on 08/17/2007 9:41 AM

Certainly it is. Unjust rules or laws should always be broken.

Or are you saying it was unethical for those nice people to hide Anne Frank?

Strawman if I ever heard it, not to mention hypocritical coming from you...Funny how you pounce on the insiting that if a marine fires his pistol he can't assault and that mystics don't work vs codex drop pods when they work on DA and BA ones.  Definitely should be considered unjust rules there.

However, considering that this is a game, you can't really say that the rules are unjust.

Posted By skyth on 08/17/2007 3:02 PM

Posted By mauleed on 08/17/2007 9:41 AM

Certainly it is. Unjust rules or laws should always be broken.

Or are you saying it was unethical for those nice people to hide Anne Frank?

Strawman if I ever heard it, not to mention hypocritical coming from you...Funny how you pounce on the insiting that if a marine fires his pistol he can't assault and that mystics don't work vs codex drop pods when they work on DA and BA ones.  Definitely should be considered unjust rules there.

However, considering that this is a game, you can't really say that the rules are unjust.

Actually, they (GW) have twice said that mystics do work against codex drop pods.......... Once on the old forum FAQs and then in the UK GT FAQs. They disagreed on HOW they work against DPs, but they agreed that they do work against them.

It would be unsporting to use something that does not have general consensus from the factory.

- G

Posted By Green Bloater on 08/19/2007 3:19 PM
It would be unsporting to use something that does not have general consensus from the factory.

- G

Assuming that's a response to me and the Mystics FAQ, all that's up in the air is how they are used, not whether or not they can be used. And since the old forum FAQ was from the Studio while the UK GT FAQ is from Brian Aderson, I go with the one from the studio.

Are they official?

- G

You must never have heard one, then.

You offered an absolute statement: "Cheating is never ethical."

Mauleed offered an (hyperbolic) example that may prove an exception to your blanket statement.

No strawman there.

Since I was refering to behavior regarding the game, and he comes back with someone breaking the laws of a country in the past...Yes, it's a strawman.

Posted By Green Bloater on 08/19/2007 5:11 PM
Are they official?

- G

Nope, but do they tell us how the studio expects it to be played? Besides, if you're gonna say I CAN'T use Mystics, prove it. Does the Drop pod "Deep Strike"? Yep, the studio has said they do. Ergo, Mystics can detect them.

I don't know if I agree with you. Can you shoot at the pod and the squad or just one or the other? There is too much ambiguity.

- G

So, you'd like to refine your absolute statement, then?

"Cheating is never ethical, within the context of Warhammer 40k."


Words are powerful things. Make certain you're saying what you mean, before you hit that "Submit" button.

Posted By don_mondo on 08/20/2007 12:24 PM

Posted By Green Bloater on 08/19/2007 5:11 PM
Are they official?

- G

Nope, but do they tell us how the studio expects it to be played? Besides, if you're gonna say I CAN'T use Mystics, prove it. Does the Drop pod "Deep Strike"? Yep, the studio has said they do. Ergo, Mystics can detect them.

I can't speak for your drop pods, but mine certainly don't deep strike.

If I'm mistaken, please direct me to the rule that I'm missing.

Posted By don_mondo on 08/20/2007 12:24 PM

Posted By Green Bloater on 08/19/2007 5:11 PM
Are they official?

- G

Nope, but do they tell us how the studio expects it to be played? Besides, if you're gonna say I CAN'T use Mystics, prove it. Does the Drop pod "Deep Strike"? Yep, the studio has said they do. Ergo, Mystics can detect them.

P1. Mystics get free shots at things that deepstrike

P2. Vanilla marine pods do not deepstrike

P3. Units disembarking from vanilla marine pods do not deepstrike

C: Mystics don't get free shots at vanilla marine pods or units disembarking from them

Pretty straightforward there Mondo.

I don't care if mystics detect my pods. I only care if they shoot them. Which no rule allows them to do.

I get the impression that the studio expects alot of things to be played contrary to how they wrote them, but that's irelevant in my games.

All I can repeat is what the studio has posted:


> Daemon Hunter Mystics and Drop Podding SM - whom does the Retinue target with their "free shooting" - the Drop Pod? The Squad/Dreadnaught that jumped out?

Either but not both

"Q: Can troops that take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle set up in it in reserve?

A: Yes they can (along with any Independent Characters that have joined the unit and can fit in the vehicle). They must enter play in the Drop Pod, disembarking as described in the Drop Pod unit entry, and counting as a Deep Striking unit on the turn they arrive (so they can shoot but not assault).
Note that one reserve roll is made each turn to see if the Drop Pod arrives, and if it does so then all embarked units must enter play with it."

You don't have to accept it but I'm fairly sure it WILL be in effect at the US GTs.

Posted By don_mondo on 08/21/2007 6:31 AM
All I can repeat is what the studio has posted:


> Daemon Hunter Mystics and Drop Podding SM - whom does the Retinue target with their "free shooting" - the Drop Pod? The Squad/Dreadnaught that jumped out?

Either but not both

"Q: Can troops that take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle set up in it in reserve?

A: Yes they can (along with any Independent Characters that have joined the unit and can fit in the vehicle). They must enter play in the Drop Pod, disembarking as described in the Drop Pod unit entry, and counting as a Deep Striking unit on the turn they arrive (so they can shoot but not assault).
Note that one reserve roll is made each turn to see if the Drop Pod arrives, and if it does so then all embarked units must enter play with it."

You don't have to accept it but I'm fairly sure it WILL be in effect at the US GTs.

So no, you can't direct me to a rule that I missed, only rules that either no longer exist, or are only valid in UK GTs?

All I can say is that my mystics don't be getting shots at vanilla pods, and that anyone taking those shots is cheating and deserving of the beloved sports zero.

Unless of course you have a way back machine and we can play our game about 18 months ago. Or, and this is my preference, you fly me to the UK to play. Then of course, fire away!

Well, GW didn't have the time to add clearing up Droppods for the latest FAQ, they were too busy figuring out a Techmarines plasma pistols....

As for cheating, guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are not rules. Cheating is defined as the breaking of rules, not the breaking of guidelines. As long as you give a score, the rules have been satisfied. You might be, at worst, a little disingenuos if you claim every game was one of the best, but it's also a little odd to ask for a precise 1-10 score of how big a tool your opponent was. As Kant would agree (See below!), either a player is cheating or he is playing fair. A game against a fair opponent is the most you can ask for, while cheating is reprehensible. A strong argument could be made that by introducing further shades of grey one does one of two things: 1) increase tolerance for cheating, or 2) suppress the ability of the players to seek rulings from judges, lest they be docked points. While Imperfect, the good/bad system boils down sportsmanship to it's basic level: was your opponent a rectum?

Finally,the statement "Cheating is always unethical" isn't just a blanket statement, it's a Categorical Imperitave, as beloved by Kant, the wacky German philosopher. His though was that if something is ever bad (like say, lying) than it was always bad. People should only do what is always good. Followers of RAW would love this guy, only like all RAW, his principles lead to some bizarre consequences.

Posted By mauleed on 08/21/2007 8:10 AM

Posted By don_mondo on 08/21/2007 6:31 AM
All I can repeat is what the studio has posted:


> Daemon Hunter Mystics and Drop Podding SM - whom does the Retinue target with their "free shooting" - the Drop Pod? The Squad/Dreadnaught that jumped out?

Either but not both

"Q: Can troops that take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport vehicle set up in it in reserve?

A: Yes they can (along with any Independent Characters that have joined the unit and can fit in the vehicle). They must enter play in the Drop Pod, disembarking as described in the Drop Pod unit entry, and counting as a Deep Striking unit on the turn they arrive (so they can shoot but not assault).
Note that one reserve roll is made each turn to see if the Drop Pod arrives, and if it does so then all embarked units must enter play with it."

You don't have to accept it but I'm fairly sure it WILL be in effect at the US GTs.

So no, you can't direct me to a rule that I missed, only rules that either no longer exist, or are only valid in UK GTs?

All I can say is that my mystics don't be getting shots at vanilla pods, and that anyone taking those shots is cheating and deserving of the beloved sports zero.

Unless of course you have a way back machine and we can play our game about 18 months ago. Or, and this is my preference, you fly me to the UK to play. Then of course, fire away!

No, I can only point you to something you're choosing to ignore. GW studio said Mystics get to shoot at Drop Pods in 4th ed and has never recanted that statement. With the release of the BA/DA codexes, they have restated that Drop Pods are considered to be Deep Striking, which again means Mystics can detect them. You can argue that BA/DA Drop Pods are different from Vanilla SM Drop Pods all you want, as far as the studio is concerned (according to Jervis), they operate the same. I guess it's the difference between RAI and RAW once again, same as the pistols/RF weapons bit. So I do have something is writing from the studio that says it can be done, you just refuse to accept it.

I didn't even bother to quote the UK GT, cause that is a tourney FAQ. Besides, didn't need it as I have two other sources (albeit unofficial, I admit) saying it's all good.................... If we're going to keep arguing this, how about moving it to YMDC?

Actually Mondo, you (or rather I) no longer have it in writing because GW took it down.

If it were still up I'd probably let you shoot, but when GW removes an FAQ, it's no longer a rule.

Which is why I said "please point me to the rule".

Yes, you used to be able to shoot my pods, but no longer. But sure, let's move it to YMDC.

I agree with mauleed. It is in bad form to try using a rule that no longer exists. In fact a lot of people do not consider the old forum FAQs to have ever been official.

- G

The rules for drop pods in the BA and DA codices do not apply to vanilla drop pods.

- G

Posted By mauleed on 08/22/2007 4:28 AM

Actually Mondo, you (or rather I) no longer have it in writing because GW took it down.

If it were still up I'd probably let you shoot, but when GW removes an FAQ, it's no longer a rule.

Which is why I said "please point me to the rule".

Yes, you used to be able to shoot my pods, but no longer. But sure, let's move it to YMDC.

Funny, when it was up, you said it didn't apply and you wouldn't follow it...

Enough of the thread jacking and resume this debate up in YMTC. Bill Kim did an awesome job at at Chicago and its nice to see a Tyranid army win that didnt have to resort to Nidzilla and to go 100/100 is very impressive to say the least.

take your arguments elsewhere Threadjackers

mauleed did start a new thread in the YMDC forum to continue the discussion about drop pods.



- G