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stonefox wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

Yeah I sometimes forget that it's an all-or-nothing and attempt to rationalize it with degrees.

This thread should be a good reminder.

And I don't care. I *personally* don't have a Nazi themed army, but I would not be concerned about what "societal norms" were if I did. If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen. This silliness is probably the very reason they're having issues with neo-nazism in Germany right now. I wouldnt be suprised if some of those kids don't give a damn one way or another but are doing it just to get on your case. Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

As for the "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" line...

I don't actually think that is untrue. SOME of the symbolism is maybe ok on its own, or in a different context. For example, the iron cross by itself or in an obviously WWI germany themed army...i don't think I would take offense. Same with the Thor iconography or the empire bits. Each on its own doesn't mean much. Combined however and they tell a different story.

This can be contrasted with something like a swastika. Sure it has different historical meaning...but if you put a red and white flag with a swastika on it on your 40k mini...you've already passed your limit.

The point, I guess, is some things are Nazi symbols, while other things are only nazi symbols in aggregate or in the right context, either because they're also someone elses symbols, or because they're just not strongly associated individually.

jfrazell wrote:If playing 40K makes me a raving anti Tyranid xenoist then I'm ok with that.

Its a simple thing. As Stelek pointed out, there are lots of things not permitted on minis by societal norms. This is one of them. Get over it.

Frankly jfrazell, I would never have expected *you* to jump on the PC bandwagon. I'm a little dissapointed, and I might just shed a little tear

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

We are not.

Don't be obtuse. Swastikas do not predate Nazi Germany in Germany. You see a Swastika you think "Nazis why are they always Nazis," and unleash the power of Ark upon their swiny butts. You see an Iron Cross and you think Snoopy sitting on his house doing battle with the Red Baron.

Stelek wrote:I see alot of people talk about other 'atrocious' army possibilities like Japs or Soviets...

Well, both are considered 'evil' but in the end much of the 'evil' they perpetrated was on a totally different scale and concept (Japan) or on themselves (Soviets, starting pre-war, going through the war, and continuing post-war).

What the Germans did is on a different level of horror.

There are many holocausts. There is only one Holocaust.

Either you understand this, or you don't.

paidinfull wrote:
Do you know any one that fought in WW2

Yes. One grandfather.

paidinfull wrote:or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes. The other grandfather.

Since you were directly affected by this particular atrocity you are holding it higher than others only because it happened to you, not because of scale or concept. The Holocaust was not the worst part of human history despite how bad it was.

lambadomy wrote:

Stalin, it's not the same - bad as he was, he was doing it mainly to his own people. Same with someone like Pol Pot. I don't think I would be happy with a fantasy army themed around Pol Pot, but there is a difference between them and the Nazis in terms of scope because the Nazi's went to other countries to practice their brutality.

Stalin and Pol Pot were much worse, and they did it to their own people to perpetuate their power, not because of some absurd ideal. That is in my opinion much worse than hating other people. People always hate other people, but systematically killing your own people is even worse.

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

We are not.

Don't be obtuse. Swastikas do not predate Nazi Germany in Germany. You see a Swastika you think "Nazis why are they always Nazis," and unleash the power of Ark upon their swiny butts. You see an Iron Cross and you think Snoopy sitting on his house doing battle with the Red Baron.

I'm not familiar with this "Snoopy" character. I relate the Iron Cross to Nazis, and as I'm a sensitive soul I shouldn't be exposed to it unless I'm playing Flames of War.

Grignard wrote: If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen.

True you can do that. Don't count on getting any games outside of your house though.

I find it amusing watching people argue about what despot was worse. If the Germans had one the war, then we'd be sitting here arguing about how someone had put a sickle and hammer on their tank and how terrible that is. In the end it doesnt really matter

jfrazell wrote:

Grignard wrote: If it came between what offends other people and doing what *I* want to do, then guess which one is going to happen.

True you can do that. Don't count on getting any games outside of your house though.

You know, I wouldnt require my opponent to fit in with the "norms" of society for me to play him. That is basic good sportsmanship

As for 40k being actually inspired by these regimes, I think that's taking it too far.

Inspired by is not the same as "uses all of the symbolism of" which is one of the main issues here. Being vaguely related to fascisim and having gothic architecture is not the same boat.

The reality of 40k is that as much as the imperium oppresses people and is xenophobic...a lot of it is game-world justified. There really are chaos cultists, and they really are trying to destroy the imperium. There really are aliens that are out to get them. There really is a god-emperor. I guess it sucks how they treat heretics and psykers, but once you've had a few planets go over to chaos or get destroyed by a psyker maybe you change your tune.

Grignard wrote:Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

That's not true. I have never known a country as honest as Germany in standing up and admitting their own past failings. It is true that the subject was taboo in the past, but they are very open now. Visit any History Museum in Germany and it will deal with the national socialist period in all the detail and honesty the subject deserves.

I might argue that Austria does what you criticise Germany for, but that is another matter.

As for Germany's Neo-Nazi problem, that has nothing to do with their approach to history. All the Eastern block countries have had social upheaval as part of their transition to Western style society and that has bread extreme right attitudes amongst sections of the youth in nearly all these countries. And that very much includes the former East Germany. West Germany historically had a bit of a Neo-Nazi problem which could be embarrassing but was simply to be expected given the past. East Germany kept a lid on the problem through the expected brutality. The upshot with that is, while what made up West Germany still only has a small problem with such people, the East has quite a big problem.

Really I just want to play with my toys. I'd play the guy, I really don't care

Grignard wrote: You know, I wouldnt require my opponent to fit in with the "norms" of society for me to play him. That is basic good sportsmanship

Thats the crux of it though isn't it. I consider it basic good sportsmanship to bring a list that is not designed to offend people around me. As Stelek said, showing up with tanks that say F You Marine Players is both rude, boorish, and designed to get a response. Certain iconography will have the same effect. You know it when you put it on, else you wouldn't do it.

Frankly jfrazell, I would never have expected *you* to jump on the PC bandwagon. I'm a little dissapointed, and I might just shed a little tear

Don’t misconstrue Griggy. Assuming this were the US you have an absolute right under the Constitution to do what you want. I have an absolute right to call you pond scum and help insure that you never play in the store again. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

I'm not familiar with this "Snoopy" character. I relate the Iron Cross to Nazis, and as I'm a sensitive soul I shouldn't be exposed to it unless I'm playing Flames of War.

Works for me. In general I don’t want real world icons in a fantasy game. Having said that, intent means a lot. Putting Otto von Bismark’s image on your tank may mean nothing other than “I like monocled fat guys who the Kaiser should have listened to before doing that stupid invade France thing.” Putting a badly done image of Hitler or Pol Pot means something completely absolutely different.

Demogorgon wrote:

Grignard wrote:Apparently Germany persists in the concept that they can edit their history by just making everything dealing with National Socialism illegal.

That's not true. I have never known a country as honest as Germany in standing up and admitting their own past failings. It is true that the subject was taboo in the past, but they are very open now. Visit any History Museum in Germany and it will deal with the national socialist period in all the detail and honesty the subject deserves.

I might argue that Austria does what you criticise Germany for, but that is another matter.

As for Germany's Neo-Nazi problem, that has nothing to do with their approach to history. All the Eastern block countries have had social upheaval as part of their transition to Western style society and that has bread extreme right attitudes amongst sections of the youth in nearly all these countries. And that very much includes the former East Germany. West Germany historically had a bit of a Neo-Nazi problem which could be embarrassing but was simply to be expected given the past. East Germany kept a lid on the problem through the expected brutality. The upshot with that is, while what made up West Germany still only has a small problem with such people, the East has quite a big problem.

I didnt mean museums and such. But from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, you cannot purchase something like, say, Mein Kampf legally. Right?

jfrazell wrote:
Don’t misconstrue Griggy. Assuming this were the US you have an absolute right under the Constitution to do what you want. I have an absolute right to call you pond scum and help insure that you never play in the store again. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

Making a piece of art and colluding to ostracize a person because you disagree with them is not the same. I'm sorry, I disagree

I'm not going to use quotes or name names in this post as I really don't think it's appropriate given the topic, and the fact that this forum should not be offensive to anyone. I think including anything of that nature can't help but offend.

But anyways...

This kind of makes me want to go dig up my Tallarn desert raiders and paint them as Al Qaeda...

I have only one thing to say to the people that wouldn't play against the army.

Don't you think that makes you about as good as what you think that army is standing for? Let's just start an "armycide" on anything themed Nazi, Communist or whatever else you stand against. It's art, controversial or not. As long as the owner of that army isn't in there preaching fascism, racism, sexism, or any other "malicious" -ism I've got absolutely no problem with someone painting their army in the colors of the "enemy".

I also find it disturbing that there's been a few people who have confused Germans with Nazis. Not every German was a Nazi, in fact, many were appalled to discover what had been going on inside their own borders.

Also a big reason Nazis are identified with the Cross and such is because when you're trying to create a clear and bold image of your enemy. Let's face it, most villains have the "cooler" uniforms because they're supposed to be easily identifiable. Cobra always looked cooler than GI Joe, Decepticons more than Autobots, and even the mutants in Thundercats.

And yes... I'm bringing cartoons into this because I really think it shows how silly this all is. Also, anything that calls back to history and gets anyone interested in finding out more about it should be congratulated for sparking interest. How are we going to learn from our mistakes if we don't learn from the ones our forefathers made?

No collusion Griggy (and I respect your opinion). Just straight on pressure directly at management.

You have freedom of speech to put your icon on. I have freedom of speech to call you a poopy head. The store has the freedom to no longer desire your custom. Its when people don't take respsonibility for their actions, want to act without repurcussions, is where its PCish.

Grignard wrote:
I didnt mean museums and such. But from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, you cannot purchase something like, say, Mein Kampf legally. Right?

It is complicated. You can possess Mein Kampf legally, but shops are very unlikely to sell it. Virtually all public libraries carry it though, but they are versions with very extensive notes written post war.

The anti-Nazi laws in Germany are really quite complicated. Public display of Nazi symbolism is illegal except for historical or educational purposes. But I have seen people do it all the same and get away with it.

The Nazi Party is obviously forbidden to reform, but the National Democratic party is legal and has seats in some of the state parliaments and a lot of people think that it is the successor of the Nazi party. So far attempts in the courts to ban it have failed though, and I seriously doubt they will ever succeed.

I think that something which hasn't been said is that the Armored Company guy was obviously a neo-Nazi. You could tell just by looking at his army. The three Reichs imagery, and especially the Odinist imagery, made it obvious. For me, wargaming is a social activity, and I don't socialize with neo-Nazis, period. Playing a historically-accurate WWII German army doesn't really say much to me about the political proclivities of the gamer who owns it. That armored company made a clear statement to me.

It's bloody gorgeous though, I have to admit.

I can't name another part of human history that killed so many as did the events before, during, and immediately after the Nazis fell from power. Tens of millions died fighting that war, and millions more were gassed. In terms of death, it's at the top. I can only hope it stays there, and isn't surpassed anytime soon.

Yes, Stalin and Pol Pot killed many. Sadly, Stalin is truly in a class by himself. Pol Pot was, by comparison, nothing next to Stalin. There's alot of reasons Russia is a vast empty wasteland without people these days. #1: Stalin. #2: Hitler. #3: Everybody else since then.

I'm not mindless, you know. Darfur ways heavily on my conscience. Still, in the end, the real question is:

Is it appropriate to field armies of Nazis in 40K?

The answer for me is no.

This thread has gone pretty far OT. The very idea of trying to figure out which mass-murder and human rights crime was worst seems pointless and in bad taste.

As to the actual armies in question- one has neo-nazi themes. Neo-nazis still exist and hurt and terrorize people. The Imperial Guard does not exist and has never hurt anyone. Same for the Space Marines. Get it? One is fake, the other is real. Real and current. Bringing echoes of real hate and real terror and real violence into what I consider a fun pastime (especially one with a science fiction/fantasy setting) isn't necessary.

40k is not a historical. I am surprised by some peoples arguments here that basically portray it as being "historically based." Historicals are another animal entirely. I have no problems reenacting WW2. There is a didactic purpose is remembering (and even reacting in games) war and atrocity- to prevent its recurrence.

I don't really care what other people paint and play with, but I wouldn't play against that army. It's a personal choice, and I have no problems with the creators of the two armies in question at all, nor anyone who likes them. I'm not even arguing others shouldn't play them, or that they should be banned, but for me personally these two examples cross a line that I won't. That's my choice- and I am encouraged that others here a willing to elaborate their choices, even if I disagree with them.

I don't understand, guys.

What the heck is all the fuss about?

I saw GMM's beautiful army & tried to look at the Kriegmarines, but work blocks that guy's photo hosting site. I'll have to look at those later. I can only speak on GMM, now.

I mean, when I look at GMM's army (which REALLY bumps his "commission painter credibility" in my eyes), I see a fantastically painted army that has elements of fantasy, Norse Mythology, and WWII showing up as definite influences.

What I do NOT see are Nazis.

Some background on me:

I am born & bred in the USA and the colors of the US flag run deep in my veins.
I'm the proud son of a US Marine and military service runs in both sides of my family.
On my mothers side, I have Native American (Cherokee) heritage and, on my fathers, I have Polish and German. My fraternal Great Grandparents ran to the US to escape the Nazis. I have no known relatives that were Nazis or sympathizers.
I have heritage from other nations, as well, but the 3 above are all that will matter.

As you can see, I have history of repression, genocide (victims) and abuse on both sides of my family. I would quality to be insulted by a Nazi or "caucasian" army.

So, the guy used red on his stuff. Many have offered this as a part of a group of issues that makes the cohesive into a larger problem (along with Nordic background, WWII influences & blonde hair). Big frigging deal. Would the army be okay to you if he used blue instead?

The fact is, red is a powerful color. It draws the eye to it and, if painted well, is one of the most striking colors you can put on ANY model.
Someone pointed out that his army is all caucasian. Would it be okay if they were all NON-caucasian? Or would that be viewed as a further slight on non-whites (Hurr hurr. Look! Black Nazis! Hurr hurr. I'm clever.).
So, he uses iconography that Nazi's did? Whoopa-dee-doo. Nazi's weren't the first or last to use any of their symbols, I'm sure.

Just because Charles Manson had a twisted view of the bible & the song "Helter Skelter" doesn't make either of those things inherently bad.

They can all trace their heritage back to Thor (obviously not the "real" Thor, though) and have blonde hair.
Oh, no. Blonde hair. What shall we do?

Would it be more acceptable if they were all redheads? What if they were redheads and it was Odin, instead of Thor?

Look, you're going to look at anything you want and see anything you want.
I can pick out a half dozen names here on Dakka & point out how they could be considered racist or vulgur, if you connect the dots right.

You are going to see what you look for. I see a well thought out, awesomely painted army that has mythological and real-world influences.
...and, before anyone says real world influences don't belong in a game, remember that you're playing a game that has the DKoK. Think about whether or not you've ever said how cool they are. They have a definite real-world influence.
Heck, MOST things in 40K do (Emperor = Jesus reference).

Eric

Once I finish my WW1/WW2 Brits I really want to play these guys. Bring your A-game, guys. Cuz we all knows what happens in the end.

Actually the only part that I take exception to in that army are the German propoganda posters.

That's the banner with the...banner waver and the blue poster on the FW basilisk.

Those are indeed WW2 Nazi propoganda posters. Those aren't appropriate in a toy game. Probably not real good judgement on the part of the person making it.

I guess my question would be, if he wasn't looking to sow discord then where was his P&M blog for all to see and comment on when he was making said army?

Right.

You're insinuating that his WIP blog was in some sort of neo-nazi forum, aren't you? Well sir, that is utterly rude and disrespectful. That fine fellow wasn't trying to evoke emotion by posting his army. He was merely doing us all a favor by telling us how awesome those cool dudes in their awesome tanks were.

He says tongue planted firmly in cheek?

@OP
It is my opinion that if an individual or community finds the GMM thread offensive then they should find the Kriegmarines and FOW models offensive as well.

The perceived offense that many derived from GMM's army can be accomplished in a multitude of different ways and the majority of us who are claiming to be offended are negligent to our own inconsistencies.

It's my opinion as an artist that art is subjective, only the artist knows for certain what the true intent of the piece is. Anyone who says otherwise... well...

For example,
I paint a picture of a black man holding a pistol having shot another black man in a street. The majority of white people think "gang violence" when the subject of the piece happens to be a lot deeper than that and the men depicted happen to be black... or "african descent" etc.

I think a lot us missed the boat with the Kriegmarines and GMM's Armor company

My issues with the Kriegs is just the badge, and indeed may be unintentional. The armor company is pretty clearly Neo Nazi, especially after GMM's own trolling posts.

FOW is different as its a true historical game. 40K is not an historical game. Its not that hard to observe an easy rule-keep real world iconography out of it (except when making fun of it-Hello Kitty marines Uber Alles).

Having said that, I don't really care about intent. Its common courtesy to steer clear of this stuff. Seriously, focus on playing the game.

stonefox wrote:You're insinuating that his WIP blog was in some sort of neo-nazi forum, aren't you? Well sir, that is utterly rude and disrespectful. That fine fellow wasn't trying to evoke emotion by posting his army. He was merely doing us all a favor by telling us how awesome those cool dudes in their awesome tanks were.

No, I'm asking why he didn't have one here.

If you are going to crosspost a questionable army across the internet because you want everyone to see it, why would you not do a WIP blog?

If you wanted to bury the questionable pieces in pics of otherwise acceptable models without having someone ask 'hey are you painting a nazi propoganda poster, dude' in the middle of it. That's what it looks like to me.

I looked and didn't find a blog for this army on warseer or on dakka.

He isn't a fine fellow in my book. You can like the propoganda being painted and accept at face value 'but really, I just love all kinds of propoganda posters'.

Well, here's some for you. Tell me how you'd like them to be painted on your army and how it's "ok".



Since it bears directly on this conversation, this one IS painted on his freaking tanks. It's an SS recruiting poster. But that's ok, right?



That's THIS pic.



That other banner he painted, well I can't find it but I remember it well. It's a call to arms to fight the Russians poster. Gee, just what we need.

Kill Russkies and Jews, right on the tabletop.