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I personally wouldnt base a 40k army on a WWII force without making more changes than *I* feel the artist did, whether it is American, German, or French( ), without making very significant changes, simply because otherwise the army would feel out of place or anachronistic. That is the thing with this artist, the army looked like 40k figs that weren't for 40k, if that makes sense.

I still think it was gorgeous though.

paidinfull wrote:Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

FOW is a historical game. It is appropriate to play historical armies in that realm.

40K is not an historical game. it hs no place here.

Hordini said it best, PIF.

You can enjoy nazi tanks, airplanes, and machine guns. Hell, those are all sorts of engineering awesomeness. You can do that in FOW. You can do that in 40K, with slight alterations. But neither require you to paint certain blatant icons on your stuff in certain ways.

Incidentally, I don't see the guy's Kreigmarines really looking anything like the Nazis. If it hadn't have been brought up I wouldn't have thought it. No offense to the artist, but it just isnt nearly as well executed as the other one.

The general reaction to this entire thing surprises me a great deal. Especially in light of the overall background of the 40k universe. A Space Emperor using superhuman warriors to purge the human race of "undesireable" influences? Tell me that this does not ring of early 20th century facism.

Yet, this level of influence is not considered problematic. Why? Because it takes something terrible and renders it absurd through homoerotic allegory, and over the top stereotypes. I see each of these armies as doing something quite similar. They take facist iconography and apply it in a setting (toy soldiers) which makes it ludicrous, and thereby palatable.

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

HF wrote:

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

So all we need is a little time to let the wounds heal? So if I cryogenically freeze my ass with a giant Nazi flag and then pop out in the year 2106 people will just look at me funny and continue on? Time makes it ok for one culture that commited genocide, but not another?

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

I have no problems hanging out with my closet homosexual marine buddies. It's cool, bro.

Pretty much.

And yet the question still remains.
What are your reactions to the FOW Nazi Miniatures?

It should be the same standard correct?

If the concern is the glorification and misrepresentation of the Nazi Regime as something other than the way it is depicted in history, than I fail to see how we are able to make an exception. Our emotional response logically should be the same for any representation of Nazi reminiscent imagery. I could even present a side where FOW is worse in that Nazi Germany players as the player has the potential to create an alternate history in which.. . THE NAZIS win.

FOW is a historically based FANTASY game. I make the distinction as the question was rhetorical, drawing a distinction between people who paint a Luftwaffe force for FOW and someone who paints an ork horde as WW2 Panzer Elite Grenadiers is moot. How are we able to make an exception for FOW players who are fantasizing that they are a Nazi general in control of a force that as far as I'm aware of, the majority on here believe are despicable, violent creatures?

When playing a game such as FOW or 40k there is always a level of fantasy, and setting a double standard, as those who are opposed to the depictions in both armies if they are not opposed to Nazi's in FOW, sets a precedence that only what appeals to them visually, tangibly, and politically in that moment is there by socially acceptable at all. That, in my opinion, is contrary to a mentality of natural law. This is good because I say so, but this is ok because I says so.

@JFrazell
I wish you had answered or read the last few questions, I'm not sure if you had, but they address other issues as well.


In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

dogma wrote:The general reaction to this entire thing surprises me a great deal. Especially in light of the overall background of the 40k universe. A Space Emperor using superhuman warriors to purge the human race of "undesireable" influences? Tell me that this does not ring of early 20th century facism.

Yet, this level of influence is not considered problematic. Why? Because it takes something terrible and renders it absurd through homoerotic allegory, and over the top stereotypes. I see each of these armies as doing something quite similar. They take facist iconography and apply it in a setting (toy soldiers) which makes it ludicrous, and thereby palatable.

In any case, simply choosing to artistically represent facist themes in miniature gaming does not require that one identify with the values which were attached to it in the past. If that were the case then any and all space marine players would have to be a deeply closeted homosexual.

You're missing the point. You're confusing a fantasy game with a fantasy empire ( and all the cartoonish stuff) with a real life dictatorship.

Example-
Imperium with xenoist elements (death to the Eldar) ok. No Imperium, no Eldar, no wraithlords.
making a list with lost of guys in white hoods carrying nooses and crosses to burn no ok. See the difference?

paidinfull wrote:

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

In simple language even a Texan can understand.

If you (generic) put German Nazi iconography on a bunch of toy soldiers in a game that does not have German Nazis in it, then you will be treated like the Nazi troll loser that you are.

edit double post

When someone puts a few icons that are historically-accurate, I call that being true to history. When someone does the same, or attempt to fudge it a little "so it's acceptable", adds a bunch of freehand propaganda posters to the sides of tanks, freehand thor, freehand air-raid bulldozers, and the other stuff, that's pretty clear right there.

I would have no problem if someone decided to do it for the laughs or historical accuracy. It could be "lol look at how silly those germans are with their nationalism!" and that'd be funny. But the way the guy made a whole background for the things, and was serious about it, tends to point in the other direction.

WHat of the fact that this is far more aesthetically staisfying than this lame ***t?

I have more respect for the guy who can freehand circles.

What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Time heals all wounds. I think it's a combination of time, and direct influence

Conservatively, I'd say a quarter of the people alive in America and Europe today have a parent or grandparent who was directly involved in the war (as a combatant or as a victim). Thats...a lot of people.

There's significant problems in germany *right now* with the neo-nazis. As was brought up in the other thread, the Thor iconography used is popular with neo-nazis, so he found a way to make it even more obviously nazi (intentional or not).

Stalin, it's not the same - bad as he was, he was doing it mainly to his own people. Same with someone like Pol Pot. I don't think I would be happy with a fantasy army themed around Pol Pot, but there is a difference between them and the Nazis in terms of scope because the Nazi's went to other countries to practice their brutality. So the German army and it's iconography are inextricably linked to that genocide, while you may not have that same strong link with some other atrocities (which doesn't make those atrocities ok...just lessens the impact of theming an army around that country's army)

When you get to things that happened hundreds of years ago, there is a disconnect. Part of it is record keeping and accuracy, part of it is just the lack of a direct connection, part of it is just that the further we go back, the more common brutality and atrocity is.

When you're playing a fantasy game, and your fantasy is Nazi's in space...I'd say you are expecting a reaction. Maybe not from everyone, but from someone. Maybe you just like the colors and think the German army was awesome, too bad about all the genocide and warmongering. And you can do whatever you want with it. But...I'm probably not going to play with you.

If this is historicals, well, then it's completely different. The whole point of the game is to play something historical (the military conflicts of a specific set of countries). In that case, even though I wouldn't personally play the SS, the game can't really exist without it. It is also much easier to accept nazi iconography because "well, thats what they looked like". When you put it on your imperial guard army, the statement is either "I think it looks cool, and don't care what it symbolizes or represents in the real world" or "I think it IS cool". From the outside, no one can actually discern your intent, and we obviously can't ask because we can't expect the truth (hi, oh, yeah, I'm a neo nazi, thanks for asking, would you like a pamphlet?).

I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

paidinfull wrote:Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Obviously we aren't talking about just painting toy soldiers.

I can paint 'f*ck your mother' on banners and on the sides of my vehicles, think that would be considered 'acceptable'?

No. For the same reason, putting Nazis into 40k isn't accepted by the community.

I see alot of people talk about other 'atrocious' army possibilities like Japs or Soviets...

Well, both are considered 'evil' but in the end much of the 'evil' they perpetrated was on a totally different scale and concept (Japan) or on themselves (Soviets, starting pre-war, going through the war, and continuing post-war).

What the Germans did is on a different level of horror.

There are many holocausts. There is only one Holocaust.

Either you understand this, or you don't.

paidinfull wrote:
Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

It's in the game. So I can deal with it. Note the small scale (and the game designers themselves) don't put swastikas on the German vehicles. They use the iron cross.

So it isn't offensive.

paidinfull wrote:
How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

I'd say it's more like they want to play the evil side of things, and it just happens to be Nazis.

I don't think anyone really fantasizes about being a nazi. I haven't met anyone in gaming in my many years of playing that did so.

paidinfull wrote:
In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

Little toy men are little toy men.

Putting Nazi symbols on them and calling them your Waffen SS army in 40K isn't art.

Want art? Read Maus. Get back to me on why the SS death camp guards make for a good addition to the 40k world.

paidinfull wrote:
What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

I think you're reading too much into this subject.

The SS in 40K offend.

It's as simple as that.

paidinfull wrote:
Do you know any one that fought in WW2

Yes. One grandfather.

paidinfull wrote:or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes. The other grandfather.

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

I think we can all agree, that army was painted fantastically.

I'm not even going to try to get involved in the rest of this discussion.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I should point out that the problem many people will have with the army that stirred up the controversy is not that it evokes historical Nazi themes but that it evokes contemporary Neo-Nazi themes.

To point out the difference in offence, if you walk around central Berlin and see posters advertising History museums with the Swastika on them it is not offensive at all. If you walk past Graffiti where someone has sprayed a Swastika onto a wall along with a racist phrase in poor English (oh the irony) then it is really quite offensive indeed.

There are certain obsessions that Neo-Nazis have today that were not so present in real Nazi circles. While it is true that many members of Hitler's inner circle had some "unusual" beliefs (particularly Himmler) and of course the Nazis did evoke various historical imagery they were in essence just a brutal and militaristic Government who carried out genocide.

Modern Neo-Nazis by contrast are far more esoteric in their beliefs and fetishes. They go heavily into Norse imagery, fantasise about their mythical versions of the past and so on. The fact that that army does not look like a 1940s Wehrmacht army, but rather a Neo-Nazi's idealisation of such an army should send alarm bells ringing.

The modelling uses a lot of fantasy Empire figures for conversions calling up the Holy Roman Empire (the First Reich in Nazi parlance), there are, as other posters have remarked elements of "Kaiser-era" stuff (The Second Reich) as well as actual Third Reich imagery should immediately show that the army has been made with a mind to evoking the national mythology the Nazis alluded to. Add in the "Thor" stuff and you have another Classic Neo-Nazi obsession: Odinism.

To be sure, none of these things would be remotely problematic in isolation, but the fact that they all combine in this way that reflects exactly the fetishes of twenty first century Neo-Nazi subculture does raise concern.

The first one was awesome. The second one not so good, not that it would raise anything more than a slight shrug from me. If someone started spouting off about their racial proclivaties I'd label them a d*ck, but they can paint arm bands on their Commissars until the cows come home as far as I care. They can model smashed up zebra-skin shields on their Praetorians for that matter too.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

stonefox wrote:I thought it was pretty well-established that it wasn't just one or two icons, but the fact that the guy had many of them.

edit: I'd also like to thank the mods and Dakka that we're able to have a discussion of it here. If this were Warseer, this topic would've been locked already or been flooded with a bunch of 14 year old "HAY GUYZ I TIHNK THE NAZIS WERE COOL TOO LOL, AWESUM CROSSES MAN" posts.

Well that's what I get for not reading the thread then. Still, I think "1,2 fine, 3+ HATE CRIME!!" is still a bit weak.

Yeah I sometimes forget that it's an all-or-nothing and attempt to rationalize it with degrees.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

lambadomy wrote:

When you're playing a fantasy game, and your fantasy is Nazi's in space...I'd say you are expecting a reaction. Maybe not from everyone, but from someone. Maybe you just like the colors and think the German army was awesome, too bad about all the genocide and warmongering. And you can do whatever you want with it. But...I'm probably not going to play with you.

If this is historicals, well, then it's completely different. The whole point of the game is to play something historical (the military conflicts of a specific set of countries). In that case, even though I wouldn't personally play the SS, the game can't really exist without it. It is also much easier to accept nazi iconography because "well, thats what they looked like". When you put it on your imperial guard army, the statement is either "I think it looks cool, and don't care what it symbolizes or represents in the real world" or "I think it IS cool". From the outside, no one can actually discern your intent, and we obviously can't ask because we can't expect the truth (hi, oh, yeah, I'm a neo nazi, thanks for asking, would you like a pamphlet?).

Yea, what he said!

jfrazell wrote:
You're missing the point. You're confusing a fantasy game with a fantasy empire ( and all the cartoonish stuff) with a real life dictatorship.

Example-
Imperium with xenoist elements (death to the Eldar) ok. No Imperium, no Eldar, no wraithlords.
making a list with lost of guys in white hoods carrying nooses and crosses to burn no ok. See the difference?

No, you're missing my point. 40k is a game inspired by all of the worst moments in human history rolled into one single mass of terrible impending doom. It's not the fact that the Imperium persecutes Eldar or other fictionalized dissidents. It's the fact that the model of persecution utilized and rhetoric behind it very directly lifted from human history and then reconstructed so as to be considered different. GW did nothing different than the two posters in question. They took a look at history's worst chapters and said "Cool, we can turn this into an artistic narative." So my point still stands. If painting an army in Nazi inspired iconography makes one a Nazi,then playing 40k makes one a xenophobic, fascist supporter of all things which are considered wrong with mankind.

If playing 40K makes me a raving anti Tyranid xenoist then I'm ok with that.

Its a simple thing. As Stelek pointed out, there are lots of things not permitted on minis by societal norms. This is one of them. Get over it.

jfrazell wrote:

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

jfrazell wrote:What of it? Other than I can't think of the British one without thinking of Spitfire.

Spitfeuer! Spitfeuer!

If I have to spell it out, what if I like that particular icon (as the GW designers that plastered it all over Terminators did), and I choose to put it on my toy soldiers, which aren't, as a matter of fact, replicas of SS soldiers specifically painted for an in-depth narrative campaign set in Berlin ~Spring/Summer 1945?

Sorry if you like Nazi icons, then too bad.

The Iron Cross preexists Nazi Germany though.

So does the Swastika. I'm glad we're in agreement that it's ok to paint your boys any way you like.

Are these the Nazis, Walter?
No Donnie, these men are cowards.

I always find Americans' holier-than-thou attitude a bit strange. Some keep pointing out other countries' genocides, yet never stop and remember how exactly North America came to be populated by peoples of European descent. I guess it's not genocide if you win.

paidinfull wrote:Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?

Yes, my cousins' grandparents met in a camp in which they had been imprisoned by the US government for being NON-Aryan (of Japanese descent). In war there are no good guys - only bad guys and less-bad guys.

Would it be in bad taste to paint up the Planetkiller to look like the Enola Gay? If so, why?