Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ratbarf wrote:Am not, The Phantom Menace was probably the best of the whole series.

Steal from 1 person for art, that's plagiarism.
Steal from 10 people for art, that's inspiration.
Steal from 100 people for art, that's creativity.
Steal from 1000 people for art, that's genius.

Or so they say.

HF wrote:but the tyranids look nothing like the original designs of the bugs in starship troopers

That is a good example of how ideas can be copied without plagiarising or infringing on copyrights. Ideas in themselves cannot be copyrighted or patented, only the form of expression can be protected.

Of course Tyrannids (especially Genestealers) clearly crib ideas from Alien, but then ideas in Alien are derived from the biology of various insects.

Ideas are there to be used and built on. Star Wars (the original film) was strongly inspired by the Japanese film Hidden Fortress. It's also an example of the basic plots of quest and rite of passage from adolescence to adulthood, from naivety to wisdom. And let's face it, the earliest literature ever, like the epic of Gilgamesh, covers similar ground.

It would have been more original if GW made the Tyrannids a species of interstellar slime moulds or something -- the insect alien theme has been so widely used -- though this idea was used in the SPI game "Star Soldier" published in the mid-70s.

Anyway, as another poster said, the point of 40K fluff is not to be original or artistic, it is to provide a game background that allows for constant low level warfare. The fluff is an assemblage of well-worn tropes from SF, fantasy and war literature or cinema. The worst that can be said of it is that is it more derivative than the work it is based on. That can lead fans back to the original sources and widen their horizons.

People are usually better off reading anything than reading nothing.

Kilkrazy wrote:

It would have been more original if GW made the Tyrannids a species of interstellar slime moulds or something .

that would be the easiest army in the world to do, all flock

Is there anything "original" with GW?

Dwarves. With. Mowhawks.

'Nuff said.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you're talking about the harlie-riding mohawk dwarves, those never existed.

stonefox wrote:I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you're talking about the harlie-riding mohawk dwarves, those never existed.

I know what you meant to say, but now eldar harlequins being ridden by mohawked dwarves is too cool of an image to care

Sweet, this is what I was looking for.

I really like the idea for the Lizardmen and I know that the man-lizard thing has been done. I also know a good deal about the Aztecs. But, combining them is rather cool.

How about the Tau? Besides the communist under tones combined with the Federation from Star Trek, what else is used for the Army of the Greater Good?

Hellfury wrote:

Alpharius wrote: though with the publication dates, there may have been some cross-pollination going on too...

Highly unlikely.

Dune was first published in 1965, and most of the prevalent concepts 40K borrowed from that univers were first printed in God emperor of dune in 1981.
Chapterhouse dune, Herberts last book was published in 1985.

While laserburn was published in 1980, it didn't include any of the Dunesque elements (God emperor, suspensors, etc.) found in Rogue trader printed in 1987.

Um, when I was talking about cross-pollination, I was talking about the STEN series, not the DUNE series, though I wasn't too clear sorry!

Surely someone on Dakka other than me has read this fine series, right?

Original: Yes. Although this is anecdotal, there is no other "universe/gaming system" where one can fire an IG battle cannon at a gaunt standing 1 inch away, it scatters 4 inches backwards, and blows up the tank while the gaunt scuttles away...

Kilkrazy wrote:

HF wrote:but the tyranids look nothing like the original designs of the bugs in starship troopers

That is a good example of how ideas can be copied without plagiarising or infringing on copyrights. Ideas in themselves cannot be copyrighted or patented, only the form of expression can be protected.

Of course Tyrannids (especially Genestealers) clearly crib ideas from Alien, but then ideas in Alien are derived from the biology of various insects.

Ideas are there to be used and built on. Star Wars (the original film) was strongly inspired by the Japanese film Hidden Fortress. It's also an example of the basic plots of quest and rite of passage from adolescence to adulthood, from naivety to wisdom. And let's face it, the earliest literature ever, like the epic of Gilgamesh, covers similar ground.

It would have been more original if GW made the Tyrannids a species of interstellar slime moulds or something -- the insect alien theme has been so widely used -- though this idea was used in the SPI game "Star Soldier" published in the mid-70s.

Anyway, as another poster said, the point of 40K fluff is not to be original or artistic, it is to provide a game background that allows for constant low level warfare. The fluff is an assemblage of well-worn tropes from SF, fantasy and war literature or cinema. The worst that can be said of it is that is it more derivative than the work it is based on. That can lead fans back to the original sources and widen their horizons.

People are usually better off reading anything than reading nothing.

Tyranids arn't really bug like though, they're supposed to be dinosaurish. The only thing that's really big like is the fact they have 6 limbs. I really don't see a comparison between genestealers and Alien either. And Starship Troopers? Only in it's most basic form of a horde of alien creatures vs humans could it compare. Neither the bugs in the book or the movie are really at all like the `Nids.

legoburner wrote:

stonefox wrote:I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you're talking about the harlie-riding mohawk dwarves, those never existed.

I know what you meant to say, but now eldar harlequins being ridden by mohawked dwarves is too cool of an image to care

Quoted for Awsomness.

As for the Tau question, I see a lot of robotech in the way their suits are designed. In fact the reason I even started collecting them is because they looked like Anime fighting robots. (with a little bit of the dolls from Gundam Wing)

legoburner wrote:

stonefox wrote:I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you're talking about the harlie-riding mohawk dwarves, those never existed.

I know what you meant to say, but now eldar harlequins being ridden by mohawked dwarves is too cool of an image to care

Well, I was trying to describe Trollslayers, but your version is better.

I've always thought Skaven owed a lot to Fritz Leiber.

brotherskeeper74 wrote:Sweet, this is what I was looking for.

I really like the idea for the Lizardmen and I know that the man-lizard thing has been done. I also know a good deal about the Aztecs. But, combining them is rather cool.

How about the Tau? Besides the communist under tones combined with the Federation from Star Trek, what else is used for the Army of the Greater Good?

The Tau were designed to appeal to fans of robot manga. The designs have taken inspiration from a variety of Japanese manga, Gundam is the most obvious but the clean futuristic lines are found in a lot of stuff.

The social and political elements of the Tau codex, funnily enough, has very little to do with communism beyond the most superficial (there’s an absence of capitalism and… that’s about it). There’s a lot of similarities with a lot of utopian writings, Moore’s Utopia comes to mind, though, and some elements of pre-war Japan are thrown in for good measure.

And that’s what GW does, take a popular archetype from fantasy or sci-fi and built a model range and ruleset for it. They don’t even pretend they’re doing otherwise. Look at the various IG armies, there’s Vietnam vets, arabic desert raiders, two kinds of Russian troops and Cadians could probably be likened to Colonial Marines at a stretch. Each army is an opportunity to play an archetype from sci-fi or fantasy.

People suggesting GW are copying are completely missing the point of what the company does. They take well established archetypes, fit them into their setting and give you a model range to paint and a ruleset to play them with.

The originality isn’t in the concept. The originality is in the model designs, the context they’re given in the various settings, and the rules they have.

Aduro wrote:Tyranids arn't really bug like though, they're supposed to be dinosaurish. The only thing that's really big like is the fact they have 6 limbs. I really don't see a comparison between genestealers and Alien either.

Genestealers - steal genetic code of other races and modify themselves with it.
Aliens - steal genetic code of other races and modify their offspring with it.

The only real difference is that Genestealers use this to infiltrate a species until their numbers are great enough to take over, while Aliens use this in a more blatant manner and it serves as their primary method of evolution. Both assimilate the species that they are in the process of conquering.

Aduro wrote:And Starship Troopers? Only in it's most basic form of a horde of alien creatures vs humans could it compare. Neither the bugs in the book or the movie are really at all like the `Nids.

On the contrary, the visual aspect is the only way in which the two are not similar (the visuals having been taken from Alien/Giger instead).
Collective Hive consciousness with a Brain-caste in control? Check
Biologically launching themselves through space to destroy/assimilate other species? Check

I have few problems with GW's choices for inspiration. there is very little in the world that is truely original.

Where I have problems is with 'folklore theft'. Taking inspiration then trademarking it claiming exclusive creativity rights.

GW are bad at this, and very hypocritical at times.

However White Wolf are a thousand times worse, mainly because their inspiration IS world folklore and culture. Packaged TM'ed and sold as World of Darkness supplements.

Saying that I get pretty irked when GW attempts to trademark names from public domain or historical sources, even from the Bible, which is arguably the most clear example of a public domain document you could get.
Abaddon TM, even once Goliath TM - you gotta be kidding me.

Orlanth wrote:I have few problems with GW's choices for inspiration. there is very little in the world that is truely original.

Where I have problems is with 'folklore theft'. Taking inspiration then trademarking it claiming exclusive creativity rights.

GW are bad at this, and very hypocritical at times.

However White Wolf are a thousand times worse, mainly because their inspiration IS world folklore and culture. Packaged TM'ed and sold as World of Darkness supplements.

Saying that I get pretty irked when GW attempts to trademark names from public domain or historical sources, even from the Bible, which is arguably the most clear example of a public domain document you could get.
Abaddon TM, even once Goliath TM - you gotta be kidding me.

I share your sense of disgust on this issue. However, no-one has ever challenged GW on their TMs. There's no way, for example, they would survive a legal challenge by the Tolkein Estate on the use of EldarTM in WHFB. That said, Tolkien Estate won't challenge because they have already licensed LoTR to GW.

To be honest, most of GW's TMs are not worth challenging.

To all you GW doubters out there, please name one other creative work in human history in which space troopers drive WWI-knockoff tanks that are named after a homo erotic space-Conan.

There. Undeniable proof that GW is original at all times, in every way. Good day to you, sir.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I have few problems with GW's choices for inspiration. there is very little in the world that is truely original.

Where I have problems is with 'folklore theft'. Taking inspiration then trademarking it claiming exclusive creativity rights.

GW are bad at this, and very hypocritical at times.

However White Wolf are a thousand times worse, mainly because their inspiration IS world folklore and culture. Packaged TM'ed and sold as World of Darkness supplements.

Saying that I get pretty irked when GW attempts to trademark names from public domain or historical sources, even from the Bible, which is arguably the most clear example of a public domain document you could get.
Abaddon TM, even once Goliath TM - you gotta be kidding me.

I share your sense of disgust on this issue. However, no-one has ever challenged GW on their TMs. There's no way, for example, they would survive a legal challenge by the Tolkein Estate on the use of EldarTM in WHFB. That said, Tolkien Estate won't challenge because they have already licensed LoTR to GW.

To be honest, most of GW's TMs are not worth challenging.

I heard it from a good source GW regional retail manager that GW had toned back a lot on their IP. This conversation was about four years old, but it has come true. By and large Gw are sticking to 40K for their primary IP and their legal team apparently regards Warhammer fantasy as mostly indefensible. Other than some proper names Gw have given up on securing fantasy properties. Some points on this:

1. GW were challenged, just not often and far too late. GW chaos is based almost entirely on Moorcocks work, including the eight pointed star symbol. They even went as far as admitting this in White Dwarf, not that a denail could do them any good. This is why they havev never attempted to trademark the eight pointed star of Chaos. according to inside GW rumour Moorcock was very angry at GW's plagiarism and hypocrasy but because he was unaware of Warhammer until relatively recently it was far too late to do anything about it.

2. GW eventually dropped all trademark claims to most biblical names. They havwe TM's Baal Predator, but no longer make a claim to Baal. No thing has nothing to do with Blizzard, but because Baal is a biblical demons name and is thus untrademarkable.

3. GW registered the trademark for Eldar. Its an R with a circle around it not a TM, a more advanced stage. They have even gone as far as to attempt to defend their IP against the Tolkien estate, but fell flat on their faces. This story regards a long disappeared Dakkaite called Swordguy, who was part of a theatre troupe performing a stage play based on the Silmarillion. GW objected to the name Eldar used in the plays, the troupe manager phoned the Tolkien estate, shortly after GW withdrew their demands.
GW managed to trademark Eldar, and also publish several editions of the high Elf army book (which bear many passing resemblances to the Appendix to Lord of the Rings in language style) simply because the Estate was not watching games companies back then and GW were simply under their radar.

4. An interview with Andy Chambers, again several years old, revealed that 80% of his design time was taken up cross referencing against other IP sources. Openly in order to ensure there are no infrigement claims.

5. GW has openly trademarked the IP of other companies too small to do anything about it. Even if the other company was a games company with a very similar name for a similar effect. To clarify this point I could make up stories about the Apple car company in a game background, becasue Apple is a generic word. However I would be treading on tioes if in my IP the company made computers. The Coca-Cola car company storyline gives me no excuse because of the unique nature of the name.
Now the example I have immediately in mind is the 'nova cannon', a spinal mounted spaceship weapon from Battlefleet gothic, which bears an uncanny resemblance to the 'nova cannon' which is a spinal mounted spaceship weapon from another game system, in this case GZG's Full Thrust. the name Nova cannon is trademarked in the front cover of the BFG rulebook, which was printed a decade after Full Thrust.

Orlanth wrote:
1. GW were challenged, just not often and far too late. GW chaos is based almost entirely on Moorcocks work, including the eight pointed star symbol. They even went as far as admitting this in White Dwarf, not that a denail could do them any good. This is why they havev never attempted to trademark the eight pointed star of Chaos. according to inside GW rumour Moorcock was very angry at GW's plagiarism and hypocrasy but because he was unaware of Warhammer until relatively recently it was far too late to do anything about it.

It is a good thing Poul Anderson was such a nice guy. Imagine if he had said "wait, law vs. chaos is mine, and so are regenerating trolls, and..."

Orlanth wrote:1. GW were challenged, just not often and far too late. GW chaos is based almost entirely on Moorcocks work, including the eight pointed star symbol. They even went as far as admitting this in White Dwarf, not that a denail could do them any good. This is why they havev never attempted to trademark the eight pointed star of Chaos. according to inside GW rumour Moorcock was very angry at GW's plagiarism and hypocrasy but because he was unaware of Warhammer until relatively recently it was far too late to do anything about it.

This doesn't sound right to me at all. GW did licensed miniatures based on Moorecock's IP back in the 80's. Several miniatures of the early High Elf line were originally repackaged Melniboneans. GW unapologetically stole the Chaos Star, and Moorecock simply didn't bother to defend his IP.

I think we've forgotten just how unique space marines are. I have my fair share of hurr spaz mariens rants but the uniqueness of the space marine is pretty awesome.

You see, you take your heroic, homoerotic space Arnold, give him space-knight armor, and have him yelling in space. That is an archetype that will be copied for millenia. It is not just the most-awesome-thing-ever which is why every 12 year old buys marine models. No, it is something more. It is manliness incarnate. It represents pure manliness in the form of roid rage and brotherly love - it transgresses all bounds. A proper, unique archetype. Generations from now, your children will read of space Beowulf who defeated Angron the large, cyclopean, veiny, muscular man. It will become legend.

SMs are Sparta with power armour.

Spartans are gay..... I mean it.

That's my point.

It was an institution with them.

Then SM are not spartans, only the DA are

M.

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs are Sparta with power armour.

How dare you imply that SMs are just another famous archetype in space. They have these things called "implants" which make them "perform better." Spartans never had those.

stonefox wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:SMs are Sparta with power armour.

How dare you imply that SMs are just another famous archetype in space. They have these things called "implants" which make them "perform better." Spartans never had those.

History relates that all trainee Spartan warriors received injections of geneseed from the veteran warriors as part of their training.

Just like SMs.

Make of it what you will...

Injection through penetration of a long, hard object that secretes fluid and often resulted in tears in the skin?

No wonder they had huge muscles.