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Yeah I like it too.

Except when I'm playing against it.

Then, not so much.

Still trying to figure out what army I can run that will kill it and kill other things. lol I keep coming back to Mech, sadly.

Ifurita wrote:Damn that's a lot of immolators

Yeah, I got a lot of stop & stares when the army was out like that. Both my opponent's on day 2 said, "Oh, you're THAT army? ..."

I felt really bad for Dave Fay (Game 5 opponent). He'd just pulled out a really squeaky but big win over my buddy playing Tau, then brought his Stealer Shock to the table. He won my favorite opponent vote hands down by still playing the game and not trying to hide / stretch the game out / use Lictor rerolls to keep units off table, etc - and by being a hell of a guy. I'd love to play him again when the game isn't so heavily Scissors/Paper in my favor just for what army list I brought.

I like proactive armies that move well and force issues. I have always played the Tau as a run and gun army with Crisis suits angling off of terrain features and isolating and destroying chunks of my opponents armies with highly concentrated firepower. For me the biggest problems with Tau at Vegas were twofold.
1) There were enough terrain features on most tables to satisfy the 25% recommendation but almost none of it blocked LOS. Every table I played on was 95% free fire zone. Games devolved into dice rolling slugfests of attrition without much room for tactical maneuver. Without pivot point, complete LOS blocking terrain my style of Tau is dead in 5th edition. I've messed around with a few builds. I believe Tau can still be competitive. I just don't like the direction they have been forced in. Doesn't "suit" me. (get it? Suits?
2) It seems that most any army that relies exclusively on shooting is horribly penalized in 5th edition. Between terrain, your units and your opponents units darn near everything you shoot at gets a 4+ cover save at range. Poor game play decisions and gross tactical errors can be entirely negated if you have a hot hand for rolling a 4+ save.

P.S. The circuit standings are now:
NAME / TOP THREE SCORES / TOTAL
Marc Parker 230/260/300 - 790
Scott Simpson 150/280/280 - 710
Mike Mutsheller 210/270/220 - 700
Greg Sparks 150/250/270 - 670
Brian Poole 280/150/210 - 640
Peter Elias 260/150/210 - 620
Walter Langendorf 220/250/150 - 620
Jeff O'Neal 300/200/100 - 600
John Willingham 300/230/50 - 580

I don't know why someone would suggest that it is a now a contest exclusively between Parker and Sparks. Anyone on this list can pull ahead with a high score at Chicago or Baltimore.

I forgot about the toledo rule this year that only counts the top three scores

Why do you call it the 'Toledo Rule'?

scotts wrote:
I don't know why someone would suggest that it is a now a contest exclusively between Parker and Sparks. Anyone on this list can pull ahead with a high score at Chicago or Baltimore.

Including both of them...they'll be there.

But yes, its still anyone's game.

skkipper wrote:

Darrian13 wrote:Illayanden Toledo style= Mike M.?
Mech Tau = Scott Simpson?

toledo style was Pete as he had 70 points and played eldar everybody else from toledo had over 80 or played not eldar.

Is illayanden iyanden? Just curious what the list used was, if so. I was going to bring a wraithguard heavy list myself if I managed to get a ticket!

scotts wrote:Why do you call it the 'Toledo Rule'?

Mike last years winner and Sparks went to pretty much every event.

skkipper wrote:

scotts wrote:Why do you call it the 'Toledo Rule'?

Mike last years winner and Sparks went to pretty much every event.

To be fair (and precise)...

Mike Mutscheller, Greg Sparks, Scott Simpson, Brad Chester, Pete Elias, and Marc Parker (maybe a few more) were at all or nearly all of the events last year. Four of those names are from Toledo. The circuit last year essentially came down to either Mike or Scott, and going in to Baltimore (the final event) everyone who could do basic math knew it. As long as Mike showed up at Baltimore and played five games, the only person who could hope to catch him was Scott. (And IIRC, almost did).

So they instituted the rule that only your top 3 scores count. Because its more fun, when I can come in after only having played in one event, play in the last two with a chance of sweeping the leaders out of the way...

thehod wrote:Scott Simpson who dominated the GTs with his Tau in 4th, didnt do as well in 5th that also cements my suspicions that Tau need some help in regards to changes for 5th.

Yeah Necrons, Tau and DE probably need a revamp. TLOS and troops scoring hurts all 3 to varying degrees.

scotts wrote:
P.S. The circuit standings are now:
NAME / TOP THREE SCORES / TOTAL
Marc Parker 230/260/300 - 790
Scott Simpson 150/280/280 - 710
Mike Mutsheller 210/270/220 - 700
Greg Sparks 150/250/270 - 670
Brian Poole 280/150/210 - 640
Peter Elias 260/150/210 - 620
Walter Langendorf 220/250/150 - 620
Jeff O'Neal 300/200/100 - 600
John Willingham 300/230/50 - 580

I don't know why someone would suggest that it is a now a contest exclusively between Parker and Sparks. Anyone on this list can pull ahead with a high score at Chicago or Baltimore.

Where I can only tie with a 1st.

How sweet would that be, tied for 1st with my buddy? I'll just keep on dreaming till I place 24th at Baltimore.

Actually Peter and Mike can also only tie Marc with a 1st. Only Greg, Scott, Jeff and John can make a placing that pulls ahead of Marc. It's tight but not locked up my any means.

There is still the Chicago and Baltimore GT's, so Willingham or O'Neal could win both of those and still get a max score of 900. It is possible, right?

scotts wrote:
Jeff O'Neal 300/200/100 - 600

Hey Scott, is this the same Jeff who played Orks at L&U years ago?

Congrats on doing so well this season. I hope you pull ahead of Marc.

thehod wrote:Scott Simpson who dominated the GTs with his Tau in 4th, didnt do as well in 5th that also cements my suspicions that Tau need some help in regards to changes for 5th.

Or maybe Tau Empire armies ended up being too good in 4th?

I was actually didheartedened by the sheer number of Tau armies that sprouted after Tau Empires came out. I've been playing Tau since I preordered the inital V3 "spearhead" army and as son as the v4 codex came out, my Mech Tau army was no longer a rare sight community gaming tables.

tzeentchling wrote:Just want to say congrats to Ananda Sisk for best appearance and player's choice! I know those were what she was going for, and I'm happy that it paid off for her.

Thanks! I was hoping for either... both was a bit shocking.

Do you have any pictures of your army?

Welcome Ananda. The folks at Endgame and Gamescape speak quite highly of your work.

Not only is she a good painter, but a solid tactician as well! Underestimate her at your peril...

Somnicide wrote:Not only is she a good painter, but a solid tactician as well! Underestimate her at your peril...

I used to think so... but have you seen my battle score from Vegas? Ouchie... my worst tournament showing, ever.

I at least broke even on my games in 2007, 2 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses... this year I just got spanked.

Redbeard wrote:Do you have any pictures of your army?

I don't have any pictures of my army over all... I do have the link to my HQ at the bottom of this page: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=18&aId=9700007&start=19

I think the army spreads will be up soon for the GT, too, and there is one pic of my army display in this thread already.

Darrian13 wrote:There is still the Chicago and Baltimore GT's, so Willingham or O'Neal could win both of those and still get a max score of 900. It is possible, right?

Yep. Me too.

Although I'll settle for Top 5 in both, for 500 more points...

scotts wrote:
1) There were enough terrain features on most tables to satisfy the 25% recommendation but almost none of it blocked LOS. Every table I played on was 95% free fire zone. Games devolved into dice rolling slugfests of attrition without much room for tactical maneuver. Without pivot point, complete LOS blocking terrain my style of Tau is dead in 5th edition. I've messed around with a few builds. I believe Tau can still be competitive. I just don't like the direction they have been forced in. Doesn't "suit" me. (get it? Suits?

This, IMO, is the crux of the current "problem" with 5th ed 40K. The book says that there should be a mixture of LOS and non-LOS blocking terrain, but the current store and tournament tables do not conform to this. I think scotts has hit it on the head with his point about "pivot point" terrain and how it hurts the Tau. (and other army builds as well)

This was the rule in 4th too, but there were ways to make terrain that was small to store, easy to build, and which blocked los completely. (felt trees, modeled trees, trees trees trees) Now that these shortcuts are gone, it is going to be a matter of building new terrain (for home games), or adapting armies to the free fire zone style (for tournaments, at least until a lot of new terrain gets built).

I think the game is way better when there is some LOS blocking terrain. OTOH, at Adepticon this year, there was a ruling that all terrain was area terrain, which some decided meant all terrain is level 3 area terrain, which put a serious crimp in shooting. So the pendulum has swung 100% the other way.

Terrain is at least as important as army selection.

I wouldn't bet against you.

WTF!

Tau are not weak.

Markerlight Mech Tau is absolutely disgusting. Pathfinders with Drone. Shoot markerlight drone, pop marker, shoot pathfinders, pop marker, erase with hammer head, repeat.

Seeker Missiles x2 on all vehicles. Add vehicle upgrade for 5 pts that gives cover save in open.

Currently Tau wreck 3 basic game rules. Seeker missile don't need line of sight. Markerlights ignore all these cover saves floating around if you have 3 to pop. Can fire seekers if vehicle stunned/shaken.

I have faced this x3 times and have been sickened by the markerlight/seeker missile combo.

Furthermore, Pathfinders can scout/outflank I believe. So later in game they come on flanks and clean off objectives with seeker missle barrage.

Just a few problems with this power play you listed.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:WTF!

Tau are not weak.

Markerlight Mech Tau is absolutely disgusting. Pathfinders with Drone. Shoot markerlight drone, pop marker, shoot pathfinders, pop marker, erase with hammer head, repeat.

Markerlights cannot benefit from other markerlight hits. All your drones markerlight does is just add one more hit (if it hits) On average your still stuck at 50% hit rate.

Seeker Missiles x2 on all vehicles. Add vehicle upgrade for 5 pts that gives cover save in open. Currently Tau wreck 3 basic game rules. Seeker missile don't need line of sight. Markerlights ignore all these cover saves floating around if you have 3 to pop. Can fire seekers if vehicle stunned/shaken.

Too bad you can't use seekers on vehicles that are off the table in reserves. There is also the problem that things will still get cover saves from seekers if they are infact in some sort of cover. You won't have enough markerlight hits to knock out cover and throw seekers at a target, pathfinders just don't hit often enough. If I know I'm playing against a tau opponent, I'll stick my objectives in cover. Makes life just that much harder, if your removing cover your not getting better BS or seeker hits.

Furthermore, Pathfinders can scout/outflank I believe. So later in game they come on flanks and clean off objectives with seeker missle barrage.

Except that markerlights are heavy weapons. If your outflanking with pathfinders, you can't shoot any seekers on the turn you come onto the table. Guess what suddenly has a large target painted onto it. And we all know how survivable T3 4+ save is.


I'm not saying Tau are doomed or not at this point. I personally haven't played enough games with them in 5th to make up my own mind. But if your linch pin is BS3, T3, 4+ save unit, I don't think it will be all that hard to knock out that pin for most other armies. So far the best advice I've heard is just sticking everything into reserves and making a mad rush on turns 4 and on. You will never table anyone, but you may not have to either. Unfortunatly to use the positional relay your going to have to have on the table the suit that is caring it. If he is all alone and the extreme lack of LOS blocking terrain, its quite possible he won't be around very long to take advantage of it.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm

You pop the drone markerlight to increase BS of pathfinders!

Weakness of Tau troopers is overcome by them just loading up in Devilfish and parking on objectives. Push them off!

Sitting in reserve is tight! You playing 40k or are you playing the coward? I understand tactics.

You start reserve rolls on turn 2, correct? Can you choose to leave in reserve til you feel like bringing on? Or choose to not roll for them til you want them on table.

I'm just saying Mech Tau with markerlight tech makes it hard to play mech anything vs them.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Ummmmmmmmmmmmm

You pop the drone markerlight to increase BS of pathfinders!

Weakness of Tau troopers is overcome by them just loading up in Devilfish and parking on objectives. Push them off!

Sitting in reserve is tight! You playing 40k or are you playing the coward? I understand tactics.

You start reserve rolls on turn 2, correct? Can you choose to leave in reserve til you feel like bringing on? Or choose to not roll for them til you want them on table.

You might want to try reading the rules.

1 - Increased BS on pathfinders does not help if shooting markerlights. They ALWAYS use a BS3. Last line on page 29 Codex Tau Empire "Markerlight shots do not benefit from the effects of other markerlights."

2 - You can try to Tankshock other units off the objective, but they might still be within 3" of it after the move. D-fish aren't that big, and of course that depends on you going second and you roll to end the game and get it otherwise they have a minimum of one more turn to destroy the D-fish and the Tau inside it.

3 - Again, try reading the rules, normally you have to roll each turn of all units that are in reserve (pg 94 main rule book). If the unit become available you HAVE to put it onto the table. So its really hard to keep units off the table. However Tau have a wargear item called a positional relay (pg 27 Tau Empire Codex) that allows you to bring one unit out of reserves on a 2+ each turn. However if used no other units may come out of reserves that turn. So Tau can keep most all units off the table as long as you have 3 little units your willing to bring in one at a time on turns 2-4. However to use this the guy holding the relay must already be on the table. Kinda lonely out there if this is what your going for.

I stand corrected! I have never read a Tau codex. I'm going by what I see a Tau player doing.

I will be calling out the guy who runs this mess. GRRRRRRR.

So you run the tactic of keeping your Tau in reserve? How is that possibly good?

Tau need to set up gunline and shoot opponent off table with superior gunfire. Not superior troopers, but superior guns.

Chaosette wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:Just want to say congrats to Ananda Sisk for best appearance and player's choice! I know those were what she was going for, and I'm happy that it paid off for her.

Thanks! I was hoping for either... both was a bit shocking.

Congratualtions!

It was well deserved!! I voted for you as my Players Choice and thought you had the Best Painted army also.