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On the topic of Tau versus the new guard:

thoughts on units:

hammerheads versus broadsides: I would personally go triple railheads as opposed to broadsides, simply because broadsides now look like ordinance bait. More to the point, any guard player coming out of the 4th ed codex will likely have a higher emphasis on infantry in their model count, and the hammerhead completely outclasses the broadside for this. Even a year from now, broadsides could probably get murdered by massed autocannon fire, which your av 13 tank might do better against. a tank squadron, for reasons above, will have hard times getting cover, making markerlights less useful.

Piranha: Fusion Piranha might work in theory as a screening unit, but I've already seen a hydra spam list, and it was actually pretty damn good. Piranha ain't useless yet, but their utility is much less. You'll need to buy d-pods if you wanted to use them this way, but it's only a matter of time before the hydra becomes a staple in all guard armies. I'll still use them since suits got hit worse, however.

Crisis Suits: Because guard can now blunt reserve roll very effectively, you would have to have these guys fight on the table unless you're running your positional relay. Deathrain or Firestorm would be ideal here, at the large number of av 12 secondary armored units would make missile pods much better in general. But there is a lot of things that can remove these guys from the table very quickly now, from s8 blasts to overpriced elite choices to psychic choir shenanigans. So, in short, got worse, again.

Stealth Suits: the same notes as above, but now outflank has taken a hit too. Still, I think these are still and excellent choice for outglanking: even on the wrong side, you can probably find an infantry squad to shoot to pieces, altought the infantry "blobs" will likely take several turns or concentrated fire to kill. But more to the point, a squad of 6 with a fusion gun or 2 will run 190 odd points and can threaten his armor anywhere on the table. Hell, we might actually find the need to take EMPs on these guys after all this time. The fragility of pathfinders and the railgun-deprivation of the skyray might make these guys the new "ideal" markerlight unit for the guard matchup and indeed the whole tau metagame.

Kroot: they will eat guardsmen, but have more trouble doing it off an outflank. still useful as a cheap troop choice. infiltrating in woods is a lot less useful with all the cover-ignoring guns. In general, keep them in reserves and use the positional relay if you must.

Firewarriors: keep them in the tanks. Nothing new here.

Sniper Drones: Like stealths, but wil probably die the instant marbo or outflanking skimmers show up. Not the best idea I think becuase the gun is too weak to hurt guard tanks and doesn't have enough dakka for guard infantry.

Devilfish: eh. Not much new. I might buy decoys again now out of auotcannon paranoia. Will probably die more ogetn, so I'd use other tanks to screen them.

Farsight: a over reliance on suits kills him Farsight bomb will be a disaster unless you play it with a positional relay now. And even then, it will get shot to feath when it lands, no questions asked. Awful.

Gun Drones: Not bad, actually. Again, relay fodder, but cheap, and will eat some guardmen before getting shoot to pieces.

Vespids, Etheral, all other special chracters: Haha, yeah right. Want to piss off a tau player? go buy him Aun'va's model.

Skyray: once guard players start taking more av12 support units, they might see use again; seekers are fairly useful again that. But think triple railhead is still better - the submunition really is a deal breaker here.

Someone mentioned that you can't find enough cover for 3 LRBT? If that is the case your not playing with enough terrian. 1/3 of the table is standard.

I would also like to plug The Big Waaagh here and say that yes we do have 1/3 + table coverage for terrain plus a healthly amount of LOS blocking (much more than you will find anywhere else, I promise) and we are a GT event. *shameless plug over*

I like the new dex I am actually going to sell off my unbuilt Korn Demons and Eldar to finanace my jumping on of said bandwagon.

The problem arises when cover is involved. Since 5th ed. came out our store has been using some plateaus that give pretty much anything but monoliths a cover save. If you are not using terrain that could possibly give a vehicle a cover save you are using unbalanced terrain that caters to your army which is putting yourself at an unfair advantage.

Playing with a couple plateaus that size is fine, but a whole board of them is creating a large biased for armored lists. While I am not arguing one or two tanks can be in cover from multiple angles, I am saying that if you have more that one squad of three it should be damn near impossible to put the majority of them in cover.

Blasters won't do much against the higher armor tanks.

How do you figure? Blaster = Range 12" Str 8 Ap2, Lance (treats all armor as AV12)

Also, it seems a tourny list of DE is going to be very anti-tank, what could you possibly do to counter something like infantry horde?

You have to remember that all of those lances are only a side effect of the army, all of the boats carry wyches (possible first turn assault), Lords and Incubi(First turn assault), or warriors (still better in HtH than a guardsman). Then on the ground you have wrapbeasts (possible first turn assault) and mandrakes (possible First turn assault)

First turn get will matter very much in Guard vs. DE.

While I will agree that the first turn is important, it is far more important for the guard player. It turns an auto-loss into a game he has a small chance of winning (well only if it is a non-KP scenario).

BRB pg 22, second column, paragraph 2 wrote:
If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves.

I stand corrected, it seems to me that squads of two tanks is going to be the magic number. Place one tank in cover facing forward, and the other with its rear right against the flank of the tank in cover.

--|

Additionally, getting IG tanks in cover isnt gonna be that hard anyway; Chimeras are big enough, and 55 pts. whee!

Yea and one KP, plus whatever juicy targets are inside. But over all I think this will be the strategy that you will see the most.

The ninja tau tactic might benefit from facing fleet officers. He'd cut down on the number of units arriving before turn 5 when everyone arrives automatically.

I think with all this back and forth a playtest and battle report is in order. But you only get to rebuild your list 10 times before you play.

I find it interesting that guard players are saying that you can find enough terrain to block a LRBT, but you can't find enough to block a drop pod. Remember, normal shooting rules still apply for mystics.

I honestly think the best build for guard will be the same as always.


tons of guys. + support

every tank and arty piece is 24-36 guys you can't have.

Is fully mechanized guard cool? yeah, the tread head in me totally wants 9 LRBT + 6 chimeras full of guys, but the Theoryhammer guy in me tells me that isn't the best build.

though 9 vultures packed full of stormtroopers and vets sounds really fun.

Clthomps wrote:

We should look at this from a tourny perspective, not "oh, you're playing that list? okay, i'll play this list that i made just to beat yours"

DE that I have seen don't just take Dark Lances, they take a mix especially in a tourny setting.

I call shenanigans!!!

How many DE lists have you seen in person, let alone at a tourney? They only have DL , Blastsers (a DL with 12" range) and disintegrators (only available on boats), so 30 DLs is a conservative number in a game were you are taking more than one squad of Russ or other heavies.

In a single FOC, it is only possible to have 30 Dark Lances and 18 Blasters. This is assuming that complete min-maxing with mass DL's being the goal:

2 x Dracon with 5 warrior retinue (2 x DL) with Raider: 6 DL

3 x 5 Wyches (2 Blaster) with Raider: 3 DL & 6 Blaster

6 x 5 Warrior (1 DL & 1 Blaster) with Raider: 12 DL & 6 Blaster

3 x 3 Reaver (2 Blaster): 6 Blaster

3 x Ravager (3 DL): 9 DL


Personally, my all-comers tourney DE list only fields 23 lance equivalents and 4 Disintegrators, but my list is more about the Wyches than the DL's. Sometimes, I think I want to put the above list together just to see how much damage I could do in a turn of shooting....

In a single FOC, it is only possible to have 30 Dark Lances and 18 Blasters. This is assuming that complete min-maxing with mass DL's being the goal:

2 x Dracon with 5 warrior retinue (2 x DL) with Raider: 6 DL

3 x 5 Wyches (2 Blaster) with Raider: 3 DL & 6 Blaster

6 x 5 Warrior (1 DL & 1 Blaster) with Raider: 12 DL & 6 Blaster

3 x 3 Reaver (2 Blaster): 6 Blaster

3 x Ravager (3 DL): 9 DL

This is correct, so a total of 48 lance shots at turn. While most people change a few things (DLs on warriors changes to splinter cannons that ride boats, a couple squads that don't get raiders (they get +1 DL), and 2 disintegrators on each ravager)

you still end up with: 21 DL and 18 blasters for a total of 39 Lances.

The ninja tau tactic might benefit from facing fleet officers. He'd cut down on the number of units arriving before turn 5 when everyone arrives automatically.

That is good point, tau need all the help that they can get

I find it interesting that guard players are saying that you can find enough terrain to block a LRBT, but you can't find enough to block a drop pod. Remember, normal shooting rules still apply for mystics.

I agree 100%, also I would like to point out that they only shoot at the pod, since it is the model deep striking. The marines inside are safe IMO.

Clthomps wrote:

I find it interesting that guard players are saying that you can find enough terrain to block a LRBT, but you can't find enough to block a drop pod. Remember, normal shooting rules still apply for mystics.

I agree 100%, also I would like to point out that they only shoot at the pod, since it is the model deep striking. The marines inside are safe IMO.

Actually, per the most recent FAQ on the matter, the Mystics will allow the selected friendly unit to target either the Pod or the enemy unit within the pod to fire upon, but not both.

From the Daemonhunters FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180153_Daemonhunters_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Q. Do Inquisitorial Mystics allow “free shots” at
units arriving by Drop Pod?
A. Yes. The shooting is resolved after the Drop
Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked.
Either the Drop Pod or the disembarked unit may
be the targeted, but not both.

Also, it isn't so much that a Pod might or might not be able to find cover, it is can the Pod find cover and still be in the 12" or so range to the enemy that makes the DP'd troops most effective. Usually, the player just uses the Pod itself as cover for the troops within.

(edited for clarity)