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What is there to love if nothing matters in the universe?

Cheese Elemental wrote:What is there to love if nothing matters in the universe?

Because ourselves exists.

Do we?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Do we?

Yes , or else who is the one thats feeling the aggravated a few posts ago because he is confused about the world around him?

Its you.

Who said they seek to relieve life's aggravation by going to forums? Yourself.

Yourself exists , you feel , you take actions for yourself. You care about your feelings thats why you came here.

To confirm your existence , i am responding to you.

*sigh*
I don't know what keeps happening to me. I feel like I'm going loopy, but then I suddenly see reason and get all regretful. What's wrong with me?

I don't know what to think. I'm a lonely 15-year-old who's been brought up with ideas that go against my feelings.

Cheese Elemental wrote:*sigh*
I don't know what keeps happening to me. I feel like I'm going loopy, but then I suddenly see reason and get all regretful. What's wrong with me?

I don't know what to think. I'm a lonely 15-year-old who's been brought up with ideas that go against my feelings.

What is it you feel then ? whats the conflict between what you are brought up with?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Good life? My bad life was why I chose this in the first place. Science only aggravated me. I see people killed by white phosphorous on the news, and the atomic bombs destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Who invented those? Scientists. It's doing far more harm than religion nowadays.

You’re only looking at a very small part of the equation so you’re bound to end up with a shonky conclusion. In this case you have only considered the most famous weapons developed, but to make any kind of reasonable assessment on any ideology or institution, you need to consider everything else done by those institutions. To gain some kind of understanding on whether science is a positive, you’d need to consider the positive technological advances in labour saving devices, medical technology and all the rest.

Obviously you end up with a hell of a lot to consider if you want to try and pass judgement on something as broad as science or religion.

Cheese Elemental wrote:What is there to love if nothing matters in the universe?

It may all be that we’re nothing but primordial ooze that’s evolved to self-awareness, and that one day when we’re all dead the universe will keep spinning but without anything to observe it or care that we were ever here. But in the mean time we are here, and we feel pain, happiness love and all the rest, and these things certainly matter to us.

Oh Cheese man.......

I'm sometimes like that. We just gotta keep rollin' man. To every negative, there's gotta be a positive. Kittens, Women, flowers, whatever.

As for religion: Evolution is great, so is God. Maybe God made evolution. Who knows? I see nothing wrong with anybody's beliefs, as long as no one blatantly tells me that their answer is right.

Well basically, I have problems deciding what to believe. I was raised in a family of intellecuals, my mother is agnostic, my father was very anti-religious (and racist, to be honest), and my grandparents are Christian. I used to believe solely in science as the supreme power, but in recent times I began to question it.

I ended up reading the Bible, and it made more sense than all these science textbooks I have lying around. My agnostic upbringings are conflicting with what my heart tells me.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Well basically, I have problems deciding what to believe. I was raised in a family of intellecuals, my mother is agnostic, my father was very anti-religious (and racist, to be honest), and my grandparents are Christian. I used to believe solely in science as the supreme power, but in recent times I began to question it.

I ended up reading the Bible, and it made more sense than all these science textbooks I have lying around. My agnostic upbringings are conflicting with what my heart tells me.

I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I tried hard to get out from the bottom of the well.

I wanted to know the world that was outside of the well.
So I climbed up numerous of times despite falling down over and over again.

But then I realized it.
The higher and higher I climb, the pain increases when I fall down again.

When my interest in the world outside of the well began to equal the amount of pain,
That was when I finally realized the meaning of the story to Der Froschkönig

I expected this to end in a ridiculous flame war.

It ended in some sappy heartwarming crap.

DID NOT SEE THAT COMING

Cheese Elemental wrote:What is there to love if nothing matters in the universe?

Boobies, you parents, dogs, and Milo Ventimiglia and Adam levine.

Cheese Elemental wrote:*sigh*
I don't know what keeps happening to me. I feel like I'm going loopy, but then I suddenly see reason and get all regretful. What's wrong with me?

I don't know what to think. I'm a lonely 15-year-old who's been brought up with ideas that go against my feelings.

Yeah, puberty sucks sometimes don't it?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Well basically, I have problems deciding what to believe. I was raised in a family of intellecuals, my mother is agnostic, my father was very anti-religious (and racist, to be honest), and my grandparents are Christian. I used to believe solely in science as the supreme power, but in recent times I began to question it.

I ended up reading the Bible, and it made more sense than all these science textbooks I have lying around. My agnostic upbringings are conflicting with what my heart tells me.

You could have easily read the Torah, the Coran, or the god dammed Book of satan, but something would have made sense. If your heart tells that God made things the way they are, but then let everything else go its own way, that is you belief, so believe it.

Dreadwinter wrote:I expected this to end in a ridiculous flame war.

It ended in some sappy heartwarming crap.

DID NOT SEE THAT COMING

It have no reason to turn into a flame war , im only trying to help / understand him.

But i realized he is confused and its hard to ask direct questions since humans tend to be not honest
with themselves. So off i go again asking questions that seems pretty stupid or make no sense to others.

Poor me >:"P

Cheese Elemental wrote:
I don't know what to think. I'm a lonely 15-year-old who's been brought up with ideas that go against my feelings.

Hmmm....starting early I see.

I only started to agonize over this subject at about 25...13 years ago. Lemme impart some "wisdom" I've learned along the way.

You will never find satisfactory answers.

...all you can do is search your own "soul" in the time you have on this dirtball....and maybe thats what its supposed to be all about anyways.

If you find that God is your answer, congratulations. You have more faith than I do...a fine sheild against despair.

If its oblivion and nothingness that frightens you, tell me...how terrible was it for the millions and millions of years BEFORE your existance?

There is plenty to "love". In my opinion, one should take everything they can from this life before its over. Enjoy what you can, experience all you can....you have up to 80 or so years to do so if you're lucky. At 15 you havent even gotten started. Pushing 40 I'm halfway done...and it bugs me. All I can do is try and stay in shape and stay safe to ensure that I get my full 80 years.

One thing, I feel that the older one gets, the more 'perspective' one gets on life and "existance" in general. So long as you dont go senile, you have much time to explore and examine this subject. The universe is a complex place and indeed it would be strange indeed that life exists for no other purpose than to perpetuate itself. When you get right down to it EVERYTHING is meaningless and pointless. Why are we here? Why are planets there? Stars? Galaxies? All of "Creation"? No reason? Or was it all actually created by a higher power that has some plan and purpose for even OUR little flecks of life? If everything is meaningless, how can a sunset or picture be so beautiful? What is that feeling when you stare into your GF/BF's/Wife/Husband's eyes for several minutes just sharing each other...is it nothing?...or does it actually mean something?

They're all questions that poets and philosophers have agonised over since recorded history and before.

You probably wont find any answers here, but some VERY interesting reading can be found in large bookstores in philosophy, new age, and religious sections.

Cheese Elemental wrote:
I mean, it doesn't add up for me. Humanity was a fluke, one in a billion species that evolved into a higher form of life? We just happened to have an ideal body structure for dealing with advanced technology? It's too much of a coincidence.

yeah, we're a fluke. but even if something has a 0.00000000001% chance of happening, the universe is big enough that it's probably happened a whole ton of times before. the problem with looking at humanity as a "fluke" is that you're failing to take into account that the chances of a species like humanity evolving on a planet that formed exactly like earth in exactly this location is extremely slim. however the chances that a human-like species will evolve on a planet capeable of sustaining it somewhere in the universe is actually pretty high. The problem is looking for specifics in a pattern. if you roll 6 dice and expect them to come up in ascending order (1,2,3...) the chances are pretty damn slim. but if you expect for one of each value, the chances are a hall of alot higher, and if you're rolling 6 to hit rolls does it matter the order? of course not. same principle.

Cheese Elemental wrote:What logic? You can't logically disprove the existence of an afterlife. Who's to say there's no such thing as a soul? An ethereal projection of ourselves residing inside of us all? You can't scientificaly prove it.

And you can't disprove it either. so you have to use your own logic to decide. just because you cant get to a definitive proof doesnt mean you have to make an arbitrary choice. Hell, 90% of statistics is off by some margin, but they don't say " hey! we don't know! lets choose a random number!". no, they get as close as they can and say "well we know this probably isnt it exactly, but we think it's this close." So by the same idea, you follow whatever logic you can to make a choice. Do i see any evidence of a soul? if the answer is yes, then i lean towards believing in souls. if not, i think " well, maybe not."

Cheese Elemental wrote:And there's no proof that there isn't an afterlife. You've run circles around yourself logically.

Again, there's no affirmative proof either. My logic, (and i think the logic of many others) is that if there's nothing to suggest the existance of something, then it probably doesnt exist.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Good life? My bad life was why I chose this in the first place. Science only aggravated me. I see people killed by white phosphorous on the news, and the atomic bombs destroying Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Who invented those? Scientists. It's doing far more harm than religion nowadays.

Thats wrong and you know it. yes, science has developed some awful stuff, but i bet you 95% of weapons researchers are not in it to kill people or to cause pain. They're in it to increase the effectiveness of the force they work for. They work for that force because they believe they are right. Yes, these things are horrible, but they were created for a purpose and they serve that purpose. Also, science is responsible for pretty much everything that makes our lives better than that of a deer living in the woods.

Cheese Elemental wrote:That's what I'm saying, anybody could be wrong, and nobody can EVER be right.

well yeah anybody could be wrong. but acknowledging the possibility of being wrong doesnt make someone less credible. It actually makes them more credible because they admit they are fallible. I'm more likely to believe someone who says "i'm pretty sure i'm right, but i can't be 100% certain" over someone who says "I'm right. there is no chance of me bing wrong whatsoever" but if those people are trying to predict what side of a coin will be face up when it's flipped (negating the infentissibally small chance of it landing on a side, one of them WILL be right. it's just impossible to know for sure beforehand.

Also i just realised all of those responses were directed at Cheese. Totally unintentional. I guess a lot of your points happened to beg a response from me.

If you live your life like all religions say, be good, and treat others well, the you will either make into the afterlife or die a good and well loved man, either way is a win.

Do we ever need to debate religion?

I'm not buying any into your post, seems like trolling to me.

You obviously haven't been on the internet long. If I was trolling, people would be raging and I'd have posted my awesome face now.

I don't have a religion in the terms that most people see it. I guide my life by the best life that I have ever read about, Jesus. I believe that all good things come from a God above. I believe that all good points to him. I do not see the Bible as a scientific book, but rather a moral one. Evolution is just as possible to me as God creating an "aged" man and woman. My faith guides my morality and conduct. I do not believe in war, I do not believe in treating another person worse than I would treat myself. I believe that loving someone through actions (providing for needs, etc.) is more important than anything my mouth has to say. I believe that religion on earth is flawed. I do not believe religion is worth arguing about. Either you believe because of changes in yourself or you do not. Intolerance either way is saddening. Hatred of religion is ignorance.

Cheese Elemental wrote:You obviously haven't been on the internet long. If I was trolling, people would be raging and I'd have posted my awesome face now.

Actually you may pretty well be trolling.

The only reason that kept me from thinking other wise , is my sympathy for you incase there is a 1% chance you are serious.

Religion = Opium for the masses if you ask me, If someone can give me ONE hands on evidence that can not be explanied or any other ting, that can not be explained wift any other explanetion than there is is god/gods! THEN will I maybe consider becoming a religion follower. I keep myself and those who I care about closer than any toher nonsense told to me by old ignorat church/whatever people.

When hammering religion it helps to use correct spelling and punctuation.

Frazzled wrote:When hammering religion it helps to use correct spelling and punctuation.

Nah. The only way to combat "ignorance" is with greater ignorance!

spartanghost wrote:
Again, there's no affirmative proof either. My logic, (and i think the logic of many others) is that if there's nothing to suggest the existance of something, then it probably doesnt exist.

That's a position called positivism. It boils down to the premise that existence is defined only by positive evidence with all other 'things' existing only as artifacts of human perception, or illusions. The common interpretation of such a pronouncement is that anything which cannot be confirmed by positive evidence should be ignored. However, because certain useful scientific models would be considered illusory by a pure positivist (quantum wave functions are a good example) it is also possible to suggest that even our illusions have a certain 'reality' to them; something which can render them as compulsive, existential forces.

dogma wrote:

spartanghost wrote:
Again, there's no affirmative proof either. My logic, (and i think the logic of many others) is that if there's nothing to suggest the existance of something, then it probably doesnt exist.

That's a position called positivism. It boils down to the premise that existence is defined only by positive evidence with all other 'things' existing only as artifacts of human perception, or illusions. The common interpretation of such a pronouncement is that anything which cannot be confirmed by positive evidence should be ignored. However, because certain useful scientific models would be considered illusory by a pure positivist (quantum wave functions are a good example) it is also possible to suggest that even our illusions have a certain 'reality' to them; something which can render them as compulsive, existential forces.

Thats a really good point. I agree, however because these 'illusions' may explain things without proof if thheir existance, one has to choose to believe one or not. I personally choose to believe the 'illusions' provided by scientists because they(as a group) have provided countless provable truths as well, and are actively working to prove or disprove their 'illusions'. I can't see myself believing a religious or spiritual 'illusion' because in my experience all that is provided to support them is "the bible said it!" "god said it!", or some 'proof' that i do not see as conclusive in the least. One example was a time when i was walking along a road with a friend with some particularely pleasing trees. I asked her why she believes god exists (I was atheist at the time, not agnostic as i am now), and her proof was " just look at these trees? Isn't the fact that something so beautiful exists proof that God exists?" I found that to be an extremely weak argument because a human finding something that was obviously chosen over the vast selection of not-so-beautiful trees for the purpose of being eye pleasing.

Complete side note for discussion: The Bible is said to be one of the oldest and most historically reliable books to date. The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus confirm much of what is written about the early Christian church. The conquests of Joshua were documented by several of the existing civilizations around the Israelites. I'm not saying that the Bible is a precision book or scientific, but rather an oral history that has been written down. Thoughts?

Anshal wrote:Religion = Opium for the masses if you ask me, If someone can give me ONE hands on evidence that can not be explanied or any other ting, that can not be explained wift any other explanetion than there is is god/gods! THEN will I maybe consider becoming a religion follower. I keep myself and those who I care about closer than any toher nonsense told to me by old ignorat church/whatever people.

You've kind of missed the point, there. Faith is by definition requires an act of faith. If you demand evidence it isn't faith, its science. As soon as religion starts operating on a fact based method, it's lost its own centre (this is one of many problems with intelligent design).

And I say that as a guy that doesn't have faith.

spartanghost wrote:
Thats a really good point. I agree, however because these 'illusions' may explain things without proof if thheir existance, one has to choose to believe one or not. I personally choose to believe the 'illusions' provided by scientists because they(as a group) have provided countless provable truths as well, and are actively working to prove or disprove their 'illusions'. I can't see myself believing a religious or spiritual 'illusion' because in my experience all that is provided to support them is "the bible said it!" "god said it!", or some 'proof' that i do not see as conclusive in the least. One example was a time when i was walking along a road with a friend with some particularely pleasing trees. I asked her why she believes god exists (I was atheist at the time, not agnostic as i am now), and her proof was " just look at these trees? Isn't the fact that something so beautiful exists proof that God exists?" I found that to be an extremely weak argument because a human finding something that was obviously chosen over the vast selection of not-so-beautiful trees for the purpose of being eye pleasing.

You're talking about the distinction between design, and chance. Its important to realize that if you remove design from the universe you must also remove design from human beings. For example it would no longer be design which enabled the creation of my wallet, but successive instances of chance. There's nothing wrong with that type of worldview, but it should be noted that its practically indistinguishable from one which infers design in the form of God.

Another point: If we assume God is a compulsive illusion it becomes relatively easy to remove its more specific explanatory powers. God is a construct which serves as a guide to spiritual peace much as the wave function is a guide to electrons. You can try to apply it to other things, but the attempt will be in vain as the illusions (God and the wave function) are only inclusive of their intended ends.

youngblood wrote:Complete side note for discussion: The Bible is said to be one of the oldest and most historically reliable books to date.

errmm..not quite. The Bible in its first form wasn't assembled until just before 400AD, there's lot of books and texts older than that. The oldest book we know of is placed at being written around 2,500 years ago. You can see it if you ever go to Bulgaria .

At least you could a few years back anyway, I assume this is still the same.

If you bear in mind that the oldest book in the Bible ( generally considered to be Job) was written around 1500 BCE, and think about the other religions even mentioned in the Bible itself there's been plenty of books before the Bible.

The Papyrus Ebers is the oldest medical text in the world, dated to the middle 16th century BCE

The Epic of Gilgamesh is dated to the Third Dynasty of Ur or between 2100 and 2000 BCE

The Precepts of Ptah-hotep has been dated to the Sixth Dynasty of Egypt or between 2300 BCE and 2150 BCE.


As to it being historically reliable.... well this would largely be a matter of faith perhaps. Especially in regards to certain key components.

The writings of the Jewish historian Josephus confirm much of what is written about the early Christian church. The conquests of Joshua were documented by several of the existing civilizations around the Israelites. I'm not saying that the Bible is a precision book or scientific, but rather an oral history that has been written down. Thoughts?

Yes, it pretty much is just passe on oral tradition. The earliest guesses for the Gospels place them at around 50 AD, with some not being "formalised) until much much later.

One thing to add. The Bible is not a book, but a collection of books. That's why its so disjointed. The name comes from the Greek 'Ta Biblia', which means 'the books' or 'little books'. In its original form the collection would have been stored as a series of scrolls; eliminating the tendency to read the collections as a single narrative.