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Things like real warfare have nothing at all to do with wargaming or the rules but please feel free to continue entertaining us with your real world examples. They are very interesting to say the least.



G

GWAR! I see your frustration and amuzement and agree with the hilarity. Each sponson is one weapon guys, they are treated as individual weapons, fire independently and so are not counted as a pair. What you are basically arguing is that a lascannon shot rips off the left gun and because the right gun feels left out, it blows up too...

Not true, just as coaxial weapons like next to a baneblade's main cannon, or one of the razorback options, lascannon AND twin linked plasma gun can be destroyed independently.

Now although I agree with what Gwar has said (although I do not agree with Gwar) Having the two lascannons as one weapons system makes the LR much more assaulty. Now you can fire both of them when you move 6 in or when you use PotMS (if they get destroyed together, they should fire as a unit as well). Heck ya, 12 in and I can still fire all the weapons except for my heavy bolter, I am totally down with that, my grey knights will be better than ever. and if I use PotMS I can still fire the Lascannons at different targets! For firepower like that I wouldnt mind it... alas its still against RAI and RAW.

That is how it would have to be played right?

GBF - what's your stance on super heavy tank sponsons? Which, as they are mounted on a super-heavy, can fire at separate targets all day long.

Scott-S6 wrote:GBF - what's your stance on super heavy tank sponsons? Which, as they are mounted on a super-heavy, can fire at separate targets all day long.

By GBF's logic - all the weapons on a bane blade are purchased in the cost of the tank, therefore, when 1 weapon is destroyed, then they all blow up because they were not line item purchases with separate and individual costs.

I bet GBF will end up posting that he was kidding about his arguments and he got us all - we are all his suckers for arguing with him. Mark my words.

If that happens, just say those three magical words:

"Nemesis Force Weapon"

Actually GameandWatch, coaxial weapons' fate is tied to the weapons they are coaxial with if I recall. I will double check when I get home, but I think if the main cannon goes, so does the coax.

Scott-S6 wrote:GBF - what's your stance on super heavy tank sponsons? Which, as they are mounted on a super-heavy, can fire at separate targets all day long.

Totally different beast.

G


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flexen wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
GBF - what's your stance on super heavy tank sponsons? Which, as they are mounted on a super-heavy, can fire at separate targets all day long.

By GBF's logic - all the weapons on a bane blade are purchased in the cost of the tank, therefore, when 1 weapon is destroyed, then they all blow up because they were not line item purchases with separate and individual costs.

I bet GBF will end up posting that he was kidding about his arguments and he got us all - we are all his suckers for arguing with him. Mark my words.

That's how the people I play here in central Florida play.

G

Just to throw one more nail in this coffin, look at the Razorback. The lascannon and twin-linked plasma cannons are purchased together, identical to how the Predator side sponson weapons are purchased.

From the C:SM FAQ:

Q. If a Razorback armed with a lascannon and
twin-linked plasma gun suffers a weapon
destroyed result, does it destroy both (ie. the
lascannon and the plasma gun) or just one?

A. Only one weapon – either the lascannon or the
twin-linked plasma gun.

The reason they are treated as two seperate weapons is because if you move and they are lascannons for example you only get to fire one not two. In fact a LR can fire at two seperate targets with them.

The lascannon/plasmagun is a co-axial set of weapons and as such holds no bearing upon sponson systems. Sorry please try again.

Also stop bringing up the LR as it has a special rule that lets it target separately the sponsons. You are really reaching for some thin air.

G

Sorry, please try again. If it was co-axial they would all be destroyed when one is destroyed. The fact that we are told explicitly that their fate is not tied together means they cannot be co-axial.

The example still stands perfectly. They are weapons purchased together that are not destroyed together because they have no notation that would link them to the same weapon destroyed result like a co-axial weapon or a built-in weapon.

Also stop bringing up the LR as it has a special rule that lets it target separately the sponsons. You are really reaching for some thin air.

Nope. If you count sponsons as '1 weapon system', then that 1 weapon can't fire at two different targets. It could move 12, fire the heavy bolter, and both sponsons at another target, assuming arcs of fire allow it. But if the sponsons count as 1 weapon, you could not fire half a weapon at one target, and have the POTMS fire the other half at a different target.

POTMS lets you fire 1 additional weapon, not the same weapon twice.

Sponsons have always been two separate weapons, and still are. You just buy them in pairs, and can't buy them one at a time.

Can you POTMS a Predator? The answer is no. What applies to the LR does not apply to the Predator. Is just taht simply folks.

G

If sponsons really were a single weapon system would they not be twin-linked and only able to fire at a target that both have LOS to?

So...by the logic that they are a single weapon system, and are destroyed together, that must mean I can fire both as a single weapon, since for all intents and purposes they are a single weapon system? And it lets you fire one weapon if you move? So...a Predetor can move six inches and fire two lascannon shots at something?

Intruiging theory...wrong, as far as I can see, but it might be funny to play that way.

saying that the land raider sponsons are different than a predators due to the PotMS rule and cant be used as an example is like like saying that a unit of sternguard cant use lysanders bolter drill rule because they can fire specialized rounds.

sponsons always have been, and probably always will be two separate weapons. (the only fluff reason that most vehicles cant fire at multiple targets is because they generally have 2 crew members, a gunner and a driver. one gunner means one target)

Oh wow I just don't know what to say at this point.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Oh wow I just don't know what to say at this point.

G

Oh, I know the answer to this one, "Oh, I'm sorry, I guess i was mistaken. I'll try to play it right from here on"

Clthomps wrote:They are destroyed together IMO.

As they are purchased at a single cost, therefor they are a single target to be destroyed.

In fact I can not find a single person locally around that thinks otherwise.

....... OK but the price is paying for 2. A predator may take a side sponson Lascannon for 60 points which is normally the price of 2 lascannons which are 30-35 points each (usually). On the other hand, the Predator wording for side sponsons is,

SM codex pg. 142 wrote: May take side sponsons with heavy bolters for........
or Lascannons for........."

Where does it say 1 or 2 side sponsons with HB or LC? it only says the words in plural with no limit or minimum or set amount included.
Also I can not find a single person at my FLGS who plays they are 1 weapon.





-Orkishly

Green Blow Fly wrote:Oh wow I just don't know what to say at this point.

G

You could start by giving us page numbers to anything in the book that supports your position.

Okay I am probably wrong here but that is how everyone I play rolls with it. Should I tell them they could be wrongish on this one? It could open up a really big can of worms. I don't want to be that guy if yuo catch my drift.

G

That is of course up to you. I would personally. I'm sure if you ask people will provide the needed page numbers and arguments so that you can properly explain to them the issue and why you've all been doing it wrong.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Okay I am probably wrong here but that is how everyone I play rolls with it. Should I tell them they could be wrongish on this one? It could open up a really big can of worms. I don't want to be that guy if yuo catch my drift.

G

Your only helping yourself and your friends by telling them the correct rules. If they want to continue playing as a house rule, so be it. If they give you heartburn about it, then they really aren't good friends.

keep on rocking in the free world!

SonofTerra wrote:
the only fluff reason that most vehicles cant fire at multiple targets is because they generally have 2 crew members, a gunner and a driver. one gunner means one target

Sorry to nit pick but that is wrong, at least in the IG tanks. If you read the fluff that accompanies Pasks' entry he mentions "sponsons gunners" after mentioning both the driver and gunner. Also, in the LRMBT area it says that it has a crew of 3 without sponsons and a crew of 5 with sponsons

Very good point!

G

Actually, if you read the entry for the Predator, it simply says: "May take side sponsons with Heavy Bolters for +25 pts or with Lascannons for +60pts"

There appears to be no rule saying how many sponsons, or even how many heavy bolters per sponson.

Lascannons are too expensive!

G

Polonius wrote:Actually, if you read the entry for the Predator, it simply says: "May take side sponsons with Heavy Bolters for +25 pts or with Lascannons for +60pts"

There appears to be no rule saying how many sponsons, or even how many heavy bolters per sponson.

.....THAT'S WHAT I SAID!!!!

According to RAW you can take 7 sponsons with 10 Lascannons per sponson, or on the flip side, you can only take 1 sponson with 1 Lascannon. Depend's how you read the rule.


EDIT- To the conversion mobile!!!..... Wonder how many people would let me use a Predator with 501 sponsons each with several LC?

EDIT EDIT- Gwar! you are so right that I can't read your whole sig because of it!!!!




-Orkishly