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Gwar! wrote:It is the same reason that Multiple FC do not stack, and Multiple Astropaths do not. Once you add +1, you satisfy the conditions for ALL the instances of the Rule.

Your previous conclusions are correct, but the argumentation you use to get there isn't.

Camo cloaks unlock the Stealth USR.
Telion has the Stealth USR.
The unit has unlocked the same ability multiple times, but the ability itself only grants its set bonus.

Bonuses from different sources stack, but in this case it's the same source. It's the inverse of the IG Astropath situation, so comparing the two will only confuse the issue.

As to whether GW rules are permissive or not, that's impossible to prove definitively. The rules don't say you can start a Tactical Squad in a Heavy FOC Land Raider. They imply that you can, but there is no rule that out-and-out allows it.

The nearest ruling I can see to support Gwars! ruling is page 2, on the modifying dice rolls rule. It isnt totally clear but it doesnt mention that modifiers can stack, but that modifiers can be more than +1, such as the pathfinder rule.

Gwar! wrote:Cite a rule that specifically allows bonuses from two instances of the same rule to stack.

You don't need another rule to tell you they stack, because that's what the rule itself tells you to do. Each instance of Stealth tells you to improve the units cover save by +1, so you must comply.

"All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" p.76.

Each model is a different source of the +1, so you must add +1 for each model with the USR.

What is the flaw in this interpretation?





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combo wrote:The nearest ruling I can see to support Gwars! ruling is page 2, on the modifying dice rolls rule. It isnt totally clear but it doesnt mention that modifiers can stack, but that modifiers can be more than +1, such as the pathfinder rule.

Dice roll modifiers =/= stat modifiers. edit: To elaborate, a save is a statistic. If it gave you +1 on the roll for cover saves, then it would apply. But it just improves the cover save instead. A subtle, yet important distinction in the RAW.

Dracos wrote:What is the flaw in this interpretation?

The flaw is that you Assume you add one for each model, when you don't. Once you add +1, every model in the unit has it's special rule satisfied. Adding any more is cheating.

Gwar! wrote:The flaw is that you Assume you add one for each model, when you don't. Once you add +1, every model in the unit has it's special rule satisfied. Adding any more is cheating.

The default IS to assume that a USR applies to each model in possession of it, is it not?

The rule tells you to improve by +1, so you must - for each instance of it, because each model has a rule telling you to do this.

Every model in the unit does not "have it's special rule satisfied" because each stealth rule is independently telling you to add +1. By improving the save by +1 you are satisfying a single instance of the Stealth rule.

Interestingly, when you buy a camo cloak it gives the model the stealth USR.

So, when i shoot at your scouts, am i hitting the unit or the model?

/hides under arched structure

J.Black wrote:Interestingly, when you buy a camo cloak it gives the model the stealth USR.

So, when i shoot at your scouts, am i hitting the unit or the model?

/hides under arched structure

You shoot at units not models. I'm not sure how this applies to the conversation though.

I was trying (ineffectually it seems) to point out that this thread is getting lost in language.

A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.

So by that logic it cost 3 points to give the whole squad Stealth if one model has purchased a camo cloak. Actually looking at it I dunno if that is correct. That makes one hell of an upgrade.

J.Black wrote:

A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.

That's exactly right. Telion and Camo cloaks both grant the Stealth USR. It's like having two keys to the same car; you could have a million keys but you can still only start that one car.

If Camo Cloaks said 'this wargear increases the model's cover save by 1', without referencing the USR, then Telion would grant +1 via the Stealth rule, and Camo cloaks would grant +1 via a wargear bonus.

But it doesn't say that, so they don't.

Bolster Defenses on a ruin that Cammo-ed scouts are hiding in, however, is like having two different keys to two different cars.

Hollismason wrote:So by that logic it cost 3 points to give the whole squad Stealth if one model has purchased a camo cloak. Actually looking at it I dunno if that is correct.

No, you still have to buy a Cloak for every model. What you can do is buy Tellion and have everyone benefit from stealth until he dies,


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sourclams wrote:

J.Black wrote:A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.

That's exactly right. Telion and Camo cloaks both grant the Stealth USR. It's like having two keys to the same car; you could have a million keys but you can still only start that one car.

If Camo Cloaks said 'this wargear increases the model's cover save by 1', without referencing the USR, then Telion would grant +1 via the Stealth rule, and Camo cloaks would grant +1 via a wargear bonus.

But it doesn't say that, so they don't.

Bolster Defenses on a ruin that Cammo-ed scouts are hiding in, however, is like having two different keys to two different cars.

QFT.

Ah I see as it says +3 points per model.

Tri wrote:I think the biggest problem is that from my email .....

My email from April 1st:

If I have one model in a unit with stealth does the stealth rule effect every one? For example an IC with Stealth joins a unit, so he is now part of the unit. If he or the unit had stealth the other would now also benefit?

Tri

GW Reply:

Hello,
Stealth rule does indeed effect every one in a unit.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

...and that's the problem every one can make the email up it is just as good as asking a red shirt.

Aside from that I googled "John Spencer" and the first link says he died in 2005 AND he was an actor - one who is conditioned and trained to lie and assume the identity's of others... Obvious fraud here.

I agree with the consensus here - stealth to everyone !