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Made in us
Dominar






Gwar! wrote:It is the same reason that Multiple FC do not stack, and Multiple Astropaths do not. Once you add +1, you satisfy the conditions for ALL the instances of the Rule.


Your previous conclusions are correct, but the argumentation you use to get there isn't.

Camo cloaks unlock the Stealth USR.
Telion has the Stealth USR.
The unit has unlocked the same ability multiple times, but the ability itself only grants its set bonus.

Bonuses from different sources stack, but in this case it's the same source. It's the inverse of the IG Astropath situation, so comparing the two will only confuse the issue.

As to whether GW rules are permissive or not, that's impossible to prove definitively. The rules don't say you can start a Tactical Squad in a Heavy FOC Land Raider. They imply that you can, but there is no rule that out-and-out allows it.
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon





The nearest ruling I can see to support Gwars! ruling is page 2, on the modifying dice rolls rule. It isnt totally clear but it doesnt mention that modifiers can stack, but that modifiers can be more than +1, such as the pathfinder rule.

P.M. me for rational Eldar Advice, both on list construction or Tactics.

Also feel free to query me about rules from the Eldar and Space Marine codices, as well as the General Rule book.

Mech Eldar army of the Craftworld Din Cassian currently at 17-6-7.

The Cat in my Avatar is my Cat. He's called Taz and he's just over ten months old. 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






Gwar! wrote:Cite a rule that specifically allows bonuses from two instances of the same rule to stack.


You don't need another rule to tell you they stack, because that's what the rule itself tells you to do. Each instance of Stealth tells you to improve the units cover save by +1, so you must comply.

"All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" p.76.

Each model is a different source of the +1, so you must add +1 for each model with the USR.

What is the flaw in this interpretation?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
combo wrote:The nearest ruling I can see to support Gwars! ruling is page 2, on the modifying dice rolls rule. It isnt totally clear but it doesnt mention that modifiers can stack, but that modifiers can be more than +1, such as the pathfinder rule.


Dice roll modifiers =/= stat modifiers. edit: To elaborate, a save is a statistic. If it gave you +1 on the roll for cover saves, then it would apply. But it just improves the cover save instead. A subtle, yet important distinction in the RAW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/29 00:09:05


Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Dracos wrote:What is the flaw in this interpretation?
The flaw is that you Assume you add one for each model, when you don't. Once you add +1, every model in the unit has it's special rule satisfied. Adding any more is cheating.

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Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






Gwar! wrote:The flaw is that you Assume you add one for each model, when you don't. Once you add +1, every model in the unit has it's special rule satisfied. Adding any more is cheating.


The default IS to assume that a USR applies to each model in possession of it, is it not?

The rule tells you to improve by +1, so you must - for each instance of it, because each model has a rule telling you to do this.

Every model in the unit does not "have it's special rule satisfied" because each stealth rule is independently telling you to add +1. By improving the save by +1 you are satisfying a single instance of the Stealth rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/29 00:18:47


Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






Manchester, UK

Interestingly, when you buy a camo cloak it gives the model the stealth USR.

So, when i shoot at your scouts, am i hitting the unit or the model?

/hides under arched structure

1500pts

Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.

 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






J.Black wrote:Interestingly, when you buy a camo cloak it gives the model the stealth USR.

So, when i shoot at your scouts, am i hitting the unit or the model?

/hides under arched structure


You shoot at units not models. I'm not sure how this applies to the conversation though.

Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in gb
Preacher of the Emperor






Manchester, UK

I was trying (ineffectually it seems) to point out that this thread is getting lost in language.

A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.

1500pts

Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

So by that logic it cost 3 points to give the whole squad Stealth if one model has purchased a camo cloak. Actually looking at it I dunno if that is correct. That makes one hell of an upgrade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/29 00:40:59


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in us
Dominar






J.Black wrote:

A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.


That's exactly right. Telion and Camo cloaks both grant the Stealth USR. It's like having two keys to the same car; you could have a million keys but you can still only start that one car.

If Camo Cloaks said 'this wargear increases the model's cover save by 1', without referencing the USR, then Telion would grant +1 via the Stealth rule, and Camo cloaks would grant +1 via a wargear bonus.

But it doesn't say that, so they don't.

Bolster Defenses on a ruin that Cammo-ed scouts are hiding in, however, is like having two different keys to two different cars.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Hollismason wrote:So by that logic it cost 3 points to give the whole squad Stealth if one model has purchased a camo cloak. Actually looking at it I dunno if that is correct.
No, you still have to buy a Cloak for every model. What you can do is buy Tellion and have everyone benefit from stealth until he dies,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sourclams wrote:
J.Black wrote:A unit/model/upgrade/IC/combinationofallfour either has the Stealth USR or it doesn't.
That's exactly right. Telion and Camo cloaks both grant the Stealth USR. It's like having two keys to the same car; you could have a million keys but you can still only start that one car.

If Camo Cloaks said 'this wargear increases the model's cover save by 1', without referencing the USR, then Telion would grant +1 via the Stealth rule, and Camo cloaks would grant +1 via a wargear bonus.

But it doesn't say that, so they don't.

Bolster Defenses on a ruin that Cammo-ed scouts are hiding in, however, is like having two different keys to two different cars.
QFT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/29 00:41:10


Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!)
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Ah I see as it says +3 points per model.

If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




Novi, Michigan

Tri wrote:I think the biggest problem is that from my email .....

My email from April 1st:

If I have one model in a unit with stealth does the stealth rule effect every one? For example an IC with Stealth joins a unit, so he is now part of the unit. If he or the unit had stealth the other would now also benefit?

Tri

GW Reply:

Hello,
Stealth rule does indeed effect every one in a unit.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

...and that's the problem every one can make the email up it is just as good as asking a red shirt.



Aside from that I googled "John Spencer" and the first link says he died in 2005 AND he was an actor - one who is conditioned and trained to lie and assume the identity's of others... Obvious fraud here.

I agree with the consensus here - stealth to everyone !

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/29 17:09:20


 
   
 
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