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Iran:

Yep, you're right it's 40 million. I was looking for the article that laid out the allegations of fraud in detail, but with all the BS Micheal Jackson coverage finding anything is becoming a real pain(read I'm too lazy to find it to combat internet armchair statesmen). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/15/iran-election-fraud-quest_n_215875.html Seems to be the most common article within easy reach. 10 Million votes with no way of telling if they're legit or not, an election certified in 12 hours despite an 85% voter turn out, ballot shortages in opposition strongholds despite 17 million extra ballots available etc etc. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/iran-ballots-exceeded-voters-by-millions/ There we go, it was ballots outnumbering voters, not votes outnumbering population, my bad.
On the protests, dude, if you're gonna point out the limited BS on the part of the protesters and try to classify the whole group as looters and arsonists and defend the killing of unarmed (It's illegal to own a weapon as a civilian in Iran) protesters at the hands of government and paramilitary, just buy yourself a ticket to Tehran and catch a bullet for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There's a reason Iran has gone to such extreme lengths to block the media or even amature footage from getting out and it's not because the police are serving the protesters tea and cake. People can even chip in to pay the fee for being an innocent shot. 3k is a bit pricey for a single bullet, but I guess inflation is just nuts over there.
http://news.aol.com/article/iran-bullet-fee/540640?icid=main|main|dl1|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Firan-bullet-fee%2F540640

Honduras - Kudos man it takes some seriuos boredom to look up and quote another country's constitution. The Wall Street Journal has some questions about your facts on what Mr. Zelaya was trying to do though. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124619401378065339.html

Frazzled wrote:Your list cites WWI. Er, ok...

Your cite is a list of "could vote buts."

Germany was not a democracy.

Depending on how you look at it (scope of suffrage, power to legislate, power to appoint ministers) then you can debate either way. But if you state that Germany categorically wasn't, then many other countries we consider democracies aren't either.

But that doesn't really matter. What matters is that you made a claim that democracies hardly ever go to war, and that therefore it's in the national interest to ensure other countries are democracies. Dogma posted a list that showed your point was wrong. Instead of taking the hit and conceding the point, you tried to weasel out by pointing to a single entry out of 30 and making an effort to dismiss just that one example. You make no effort to dispute the other 29.

Is it too much to ask for people to be honest enough to concede points? Really, to just say 'my bad on that, but I'm still sticking to points x, y and z'.

Tyras wrote:Iran:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/15/iran-election-fraud-quest_n_215875.html Seems to be the most common article within easy reach. 10 Million votes with no way of telling if they're legit or not, an election certified in 12 hours despite an 85% voter turn out, ballot shortages in opposition strongholds despite 17 million extra ballots available etc etc.

As the article points out, the quick turnaround was certainly not impossible given certain advances in infrastructural capacity.

The ballot shortages are dodgy, but don't seem as though they could account for the sheer discrepancy in votes.

Obviously the most pressing issue lies with the 10 million untraceable votes. However, the article makes no mention of how many of those votes went for Ahmadinejad.

Tyras wrote:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/iran-ballots-exceeded-voters-by-millions/ There we go, it was ballots outnumbering voters, not votes outnumbering population, my bad.

This isn't quite so bad when you consider that Iranians are not required to vote in their district of residence.

I'm not going to say that the election was a paragon of democratic process, but to say that it was obviously stolen just isn't verified by the evidence. Especially given the laundry list of regional experts registering a lack of surprise at the incumbent's victory.

Tyras wrote:
On the protests, dude, if you're gonna point out the limited BS on the part of the protesters and try to classify the whole group as looters and arsonists and defend the killing of unarmed (It's illegal to own a weapon as a civilian in Iran) protesters at the hands of government and paramilitary,

I'm not trying to classify anyone. Nor am I attempting to defend the killing of unarmed civilians. I'm simply point out that, even in the US, the right to assembly ends when violence begins.

Tyras wrote:
just buy yourself a ticket to Tehran and catch a bullet for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'd rather you just used a step-ladder to come down off your high horse.

Tyras wrote:
There's a reason Iran has gone to such extreme lengths to block the media or even amature footage from getting out and it's not because the police are serving the protesters tea and cake. People can even chip in to pay the fee for being an innocent shot. 3k is a bit pricey for a single bullet, but I guess inflation is just nuts over there.
http://news.aol.com/article/iran-bullet-fee/540640?icid=main|main|dl1|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Firan-bullet-fee%2F540640

Yeah, the Iranian government is using violence to quell what they see as an attempted insurrection. That really has no bearing on the actual result of the election.

Tyras wrote:
Honduras - Kudos man it takes some seriuos boredom to look up and quote another country's constitution. The Wall Street Journal has some questions about your facts on what Mr. Zelaya was trying to do though. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124619401378065339.html

I actually had that stuff called up for an article I'm working on. Either way, the Journal misrepresented all the relevant facts in pretty much the same way you did. The only thing worth noting is that Zelaya didn't actually call for the referendum which was the supposed cause for his removal, but a plebiscite meant to gauge interest in the referendum. The referendum would be unconstitutional for the exact reason stated, but the plebiscite was not.

Tyras no one convinces anyone and at the end of the day this is a message board about toy soldiers. While enlightening, it is not relevant and fruitless.

Frazzled wrote:Tyras no one convinces anyone and at the end of the day this is a message board about toy soldiers. While enlightening, it is not relevant and fruitless.

Point taken.